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62% against stripping public employees' bargaining rights

republican mouthpieces and their lies

half trillion in cuts to medicare, all the while obama simultaneously expands its already teetering enrollment by millions, wapo:

Capitol Briefing - Senate votes to keep Medicare cuts

er costs increase, boston globe:

ER visits, costs in Mass. climb - The Boston Globe

doctors refuse new medicare patients, nyt:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/02/business/retirementspecial/02health.html

the doc fix passes, another quarter tril unaccounted for, the hill:

Senate passes 1-year doc fix - The Hill's Healthwatch

another quarter T double counted, bloomberg:

Budget Office Rebuts Democratic Claims on Medicare (Update1) - Bloomberg

our already broken backed states are burdened with 200 billion in the form of brand new medicaid enrollees, globe:

Governors balk over what healthcare bill will cost states - The Boston Globe

three quarters of a T in new taxes, cbo website:

Director's Blog » Blog Archive » Additional Information on CBO’s Preliminary Analysis of H.R. 2

800 toobigs EXEMPTED from obamacare's yearly cap requirements, hhs website:

Helping Americans Keep the Coverage They Have and Promoting Transparency | HHS.gov
 
What bargaining "rights"?

A "right" is, if one subscribes to the theory of rights, a guarantee a man has that certain acts of others that infringe on his health, his property, and his freedom are morally repugnant and proscribed for the common good. Hence a man is not protected from murder, but murder is an act that is punishable by law. Slavery is not allowed. Theft is condemned and punished. A man has a right to own and carry firearms and other weapons. That particular right is older than the human race and is part of the very evolution that shaped us.

A "right" to collective bargaining? Does anyone have a "right" to compel others to join the swim team? No. How about the chess club? Nope, no one can compel others to castle on command. Do members in the club have the right to command the legal authority of the state to collect dues from everyone whether or not they want to be members? Does the state have any obligation whatsoever to garnishee wages on behalf of any club?

No.

So no "rights" are being violated or infringed when a state decides it's done playing the collection agent game and begins restoring the separation between union and employer that must exist to ensure that the employers interests are fairly presented and served.

If unions want to collect dues, there's nothing stopping them from collecting from members who want to continue their membership.

Unions, however, have no rights or authority to compel enrollment from men who do not wish it. The unions will have to do what every other association is required to do: Compete for membership by overing valuable services at fair prices and the member, not the union leaders, decides if he'll accept that offering.

Mayor Snorkum calls this process "freedom".

An interesting poll would be to see how many people support both the fictitious freedom of a woman to kill her unborn child and the freedom of a man to decline union membership. But that would be a bit too far off topic.
 
The Prof said:
it looks like a done deal in ohio

Ohio Advances Curbs on Public Unions - WSJ.com

this is not surprising, the pros saw it coming quite awhile ago, due to the composition of the buckeye legislature

what's going on in ohio and wisconsin is sweeping the nation, and the wave is huge

in each particular locality, it's just going to be a matter of degree

stay up
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The wave will break on California. The left is determined to ruin this state.
 
Mayor Snorkum said:
The wave will break on California. The left is determined to ruin this state.
Click to expand...

What ruined California was a willy-nilly system of direct democracy that allows them to vote for spending programs everyone loves while making impossible to adjust taxes to pay for them.

The laws established there almost require one-party rule to create a balanced-budget.

The thing that's pissing me off about Walker, et. al. is that the unions have already acquiesced on the necessity of making concessions. But he doesn't want concessions - he wants to destroy the workers' right to organize.

And it is a right.

Guess who said this:

"They remind us that where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost. They remind us that freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. You and I must protect and preserve freedom here or it will not be passed on to our children and it would disappear everywhere in the world. Today the workers in Poland are showing a new generation how high is the price of freedom but also how much it is worth that price."
 
from the Prof

respect for facts, not opinions
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especially when it is PUBLIC OPINION and it does not agree with your PRIVATE OPINION.
 
Mayor Snorkum said:
What bargaining "rights"?

A "right" is, if one subscribes to the theory of rights, a guarantee a man has that certain acts of others that infringe on his health, his property, and his freedom are morally repugnant and proscribed for the common good. Hence a man is not protected from murder, but murder is an act that is punishable by law. Slavery is not allowed. Theft is condemned and punished. A man has a right to own and carry firearms and other weapons. That particular right is older than the human race and is part of the very evolution that shaped us.

A "right" to collective bargaining? Does anyone have a "right" to compel others to join the swim team? No. How about the chess club? Nope, no one can compel others to castle on command. Do members in the club have the right to command the legal authority of the state to collect dues from everyone whether or not they want to be members? Does the state have any obligation whatsoever to garnishee wages on behalf of any club?

No.

So no "rights" are being violated or infringed when a state decides it's done playing the collection agent game and begins restoring the separation between union and employer that must exist to ensure that the employers interests are fairly presented and served.

If unions want to collect dues, there's nothing stopping them from collecting from members who want to continue their membership.

Unions, however, have no rights or authority to compel enrollment from men who do not wish it. The unions will have to do what every other association is required to do: Compete for membership by overing valuable services at fair prices and the member, not the union leaders, decides if he'll accept that offering.

Mayor Snorkum calls this process "freedom".

An interesting poll would be to see how many people support both the fictitious freedom of a woman to kill her unborn child and the freedom of a man to decline union membership. But that would be a bit too far off topic.
Click to expand...

The Pragmatists prayer:

When oh when dear Lord will you free us from this pestilence known as libertarianism and all its self serving mumbo jumbo and doubletalk?
 
Erod said:
I highly doubt this polling data is accurate.

Only 12 percent of workers belong to uninos, and if not for the requirement to join of some unions, that number would be in the single digits.

Most people hate unions. Trying to do business in union states is extremely difficult for companies both inside and outside of those states.

A poll can show whatever you want it to, depending on who you ask and what you ask them. I definitely think that's the case here.
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So poll after poll tells you one thing but your own self imposed ideology tell you another thing. You may take that as a sign that it is you who are marching out of step on this issue.
 
Erod said:
Prof, imagine this.

What if the Dems don't win back these states in 2012 and 2014? Better yet, what if the GOP wins hands down?

These union dems are going to be faced with knowing that everything they've ever believed and taken for granted about people......was wrong.
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Share the fantasy.
 
haymarket said:
So poll after poll tells you one thing but your own self imposed ideology tell you another thing. You may take that as a sign that it is you who are marching out of step on this issue.
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Not to mention that as labor union membership has declined, middle class wages have stagnated.

Again, CEOs and Major Corporations organizing to form PACs to lobby government to get all the perks: the American way.

Working people organizing together to demand living wages for their work: apparently un-American.
 
tell it to the 65 house democrats who lost their jobs on tsunami tuesday, the 10 blue gubs, the 6 dem senators, the 690 state reps, most in history...

a rasmussen poll---LOL!
 
marduc said:
"62% against stripping public employees' bargaining rights"


What about the public employees that can keep their clothes on?
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You are talking about the United Brotherhood of Politicians now. They are the real whores here. :mrgreen:
 
We can't and shouldn't treat people as fungible. Corporations want to treat people as interchangable. They are not. And that is why we need to have institutions that promote the dignity of the individual. Unions are not perfect at this, but they are better than the alternatives.
 
FilmFestGuy said:
What ruined California was a willy-nilly system of direct democracy that allows them to vote for spending programs everyone loves while making impossible to adjust taxes to pay for them.
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More precisely, allowing the mob to vote on expenditures without restraint broke the budget.

Last time Mayor Snorkum checked, the Constitution requires each state in the union to have a republican form of government, ie, a republic, not a democracy. While it is true that an effectively tenured legislature needs a kick in the ass from the electorate, allowing the uneducated greedy ignorant electorate access to the coffers is just stupid.

The laws established there almost require one-party rule to create a balanced-budget.
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No, it requires the Democrats to give up their addiction to money the state doesn't have.

You know, the OTHER way to balance a budget, by cutting spending to match revenues. I can't recall the last time that happened in California. Certainly hasn't happened while Mayor Snorkum has blessed this state with his presence.

The thing that's pissing me off about Walker, et. al. is that the unions have already acquiesced on the necessity of making concessions. But he doesn't want concessions - he wants to destroy the workers' right to organize.
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No.

Not one damn thing Walker has done prevents anyone from joining a union or paying union dues if they wish to.

All Walker wishes to do is remove the state from the Dues Collecting business and the Closed Shop business. It is morally corrupt to force people into unions just to get a job.

Moral corruption is what unions are all about.

And it is a right.
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And no one is taking that right away.

But, if a man does not wish to join a union, he has every right to decline. The freedom of association in the First Amendment works both ways, sonny.

"They remind us that where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost. They remind us that freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. You and I must protect and preserve freedom here or it will not be passed on to our children and it would disappear everywhere in the world. Today the workers in Poland are showing a new generation how high is the price of freedom but also how much it is worth that price."
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Mao?

Che?

Some other commie with a three letter name?

I'm guessing it's some guy in Poland?

But, needless to say, I'm not seeing where Wisconsin is fettering any unions. Would you care to point out which chains are being applied?

Here's a hint for you, when a man decides he's no longer going to fetch another man's water, that doesn't mean he's enslaved the other man. It means the other man has to fetch his own damn drinks. If Wisconsin doesn't want to collect dues from the employees anymore, then the unions will have to ask politely for voluntary membership.

What's happening is that Walker is trying to restore the people's freedom to say, "hell no" to union corruption. And the unions are having the most entertaining hissy fit Mayor Snorkum has seen in the longest time.
 
haymarket said:
The Pragmatists prayer:

When oh when dear Lord will you free us from this pestilence known as libertarianism and all its self serving mumbo jumbo and doubletalk?
Click to expand...

Mayor Snorkum, aka the Lord, responds, what's pragmatic about slavery?
 
zip98053 said:
We can't and shouldn't treat people as fungible. Corporations want to treat people as interchangable. They are not. And that is why we need to have institutions that promote the dignity of the individual. Unions are not perfect at this, but they are better than the alternatives.
Click to expand...

That stooge who shouted "Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! ...." has no dignity to preserve. Nor does anyone who can disrupt public business and march in the street yelling mindless chantess from a megaphone wielding puppet master.

If you're going to support human dignity you first have to restore their freedom to say "no, I won't".

Anyone who can't trust them to make the choice you desire while free has no respect for their dignity.

"Let my people go," said some ancient jewish dude.
 
Mayor Snorkum said:
That stooge who shouted "Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! Fox lies! ...." has no dignity to preserve. Nor does anyone who can disrupt public business and march in the street yelling mindless chantess from a megaphone wielding puppet master.

If you're going to support human dignity you first have to restore their freedom to say "no, I won't".

Anyone who can't trust them to make the choice you desire while free has no respect for their dignity.

"Let my people go," said some ancient jewish dude.
Click to expand...

I have no idea what your point might be.
 
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