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Thread: 62% against stripping public employees' bargaining rights

  1. #51
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    Re: 62% against stripping public employees' bargaining rights

    republican mouthpieces and their lies

    half trillion in cuts to medicare, all the while obama simultaneously expands its already teetering enrollment by millions, wapo:

    Capitol Briefing - Senate votes to keep Medicare cuts

    er costs increase, boston globe:

    ER visits, costs in Mass. climb - The Boston Globe

    doctors refuse new medicare patients, nyt:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/02/bu.../02health.html

    the doc fix passes, another quarter tril unaccounted for, the hill:

    Senate passes 1-year doc fix - The Hill's Healthwatch

    another quarter T double counted, bloomberg:

    Budget Office Rebuts Democratic Claims on Medicare (Update1) - Bloomberg

    our already broken backed states are burdened with 200 billion in the form of brand new medicaid enrollees, globe:

    Governors balk over what healthcare bill will cost states - The Boston Globe

    three quarters of a T in new taxes, cbo website:

    Director's Blog Blog Archive Additional Information on CBO’s Preliminary Analysis of H.R. 2

    800 toobigs EXEMPTED from obamacare's yearly cap requirements, hhs website:

    Helping Americans Keep the Coverage They Have and Promoting Transparency | HHS.gov

  2. #52
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    Re: 62% against stripping public employees' bargaining rights

    What bargaining "rights"?

    A "right" is, if one subscribes to the theory of rights, a guarantee a man has that certain acts of others that infringe on his health, his property, and his freedom are morally repugnant and proscribed for the common good. Hence a man is not protected from murder, but murder is an act that is punishable by law. Slavery is not allowed. Theft is condemned and punished. A man has a right to own and carry firearms and other weapons. That particular right is older than the human race and is part of the very evolution that shaped us.

    A "right" to collective bargaining? Does anyone have a "right" to compel others to join the swim team? No. How about the chess club? Nope, no one can compel others to castle on command. Do members in the club have the right to command the legal authority of the state to collect dues from everyone whether or not they want to be members? Does the state have any obligation whatsoever to garnishee wages on behalf of any club?

    No.

    So no "rights" are being violated or infringed when a state decides it's done playing the collection agent game and begins restoring the separation between union and employer that must exist to ensure that the employers interests are fairly presented and served.

    If unions want to collect dues, there's nothing stopping them from collecting from members who want to continue their membership.

    Unions, however, have no rights or authority to compel enrollment from men who do not wish it. The unions will have to do what every other association is required to do: Compete for membership by overing valuable services at fair prices and the member, not the union leaders, decides if he'll accept that offering.

    Mayor Snorkum calls this process "freedom".

    An interesting poll would be to see how many people support both the fictitious freedom of a woman to kill her unborn child and the freedom of a man to decline union membership. But that would be a bit too far off topic.

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    Re: 62% against stripping public employees' bargaining rights

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    it looks like a done deal in ohio

    Ohio Advances Curbs on Public Unions - WSJ.com

    this is not surprising, the pros saw it coming quite awhile ago, due to the composition of the buckeye legislature

    what's going on in ohio and wisconsin is sweeping the nation, and the wave is huge

    in each particular locality, it's just going to be a matter of degree

    stay up
    The wave will break on California. The left is determined to ruin this state.

  4. #54
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    Re: 62% against stripping public employees' bargaining rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayor Snorkum View Post
    The wave will break on California. The left is determined to ruin this state.
    What ruined California was a willy-nilly system of direct democracy that allows them to vote for spending programs everyone loves while making impossible to adjust taxes to pay for them.

    The laws established there almost require one-party rule to create a balanced-budget.

    The thing that's pissing me off about Walker, et. al. is that the unions have already acquiesced on the necessity of making concessions. But he doesn't want concessions - he wants to destroy the workers' right to organize.

    And it is a right.

    Guess who said this:

    "They remind us that where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost. They remind us that freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. You and I must protect and preserve freedom here or it will not be passed on to our children and it would disappear everywhere in the world. Today the workers in Poland are showing a new generation how high is the price of freedom but also how much it is worth that price."

  5. #55
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    Re: 62% against stripping public employees' bargaining rights

    from the Prof

    respect for facts, not opinions
    especially when it is PUBLIC OPINION and it does not agree with your PRIVATE OPINION.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  6. #56
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    Re: 62% against stripping public employees' bargaining rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayor Snorkum View Post
    What bargaining "rights"?

    A "right" is, if one subscribes to the theory of rights, a guarantee a man has that certain acts of others that infringe on his health, his property, and his freedom are morally repugnant and proscribed for the common good. Hence a man is not protected from murder, but murder is an act that is punishable by law. Slavery is not allowed. Theft is condemned and punished. A man has a right to own and carry firearms and other weapons. That particular right is older than the human race and is part of the very evolution that shaped us.

    A "right" to collective bargaining? Does anyone have a "right" to compel others to join the swim team? No. How about the chess club? Nope, no one can compel others to castle on command. Do members in the club have the right to command the legal authority of the state to collect dues from everyone whether or not they want to be members? Does the state have any obligation whatsoever to garnishee wages on behalf of any club?

    No.

    So no "rights" are being violated or infringed when a state decides it's done playing the collection agent game and begins restoring the separation between union and employer that must exist to ensure that the employers interests are fairly presented and served.

    If unions want to collect dues, there's nothing stopping them from collecting from members who want to continue their membership.

    Unions, however, have no rights or authority to compel enrollment from men who do not wish it. The unions will have to do what every other association is required to do: Compete for membership by overing valuable services at fair prices and the member, not the union leaders, decides if he'll accept that offering.

    Mayor Snorkum calls this process "freedom".

    An interesting poll would be to see how many people support both the fictitious freedom of a woman to kill her unborn child and the freedom of a man to decline union membership. But that would be a bit too far off topic.
    The Pragmatists prayer:

    When oh when dear Lord will you free us from this pestilence known as libertarianism and all its self serving mumbo jumbo and doubletalk?
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  7. #57
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    Re: 62% against stripping public employees' bargaining rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    I highly doubt this polling data is accurate.

    Only 12 percent of workers belong to uninos, and if not for the requirement to join of some unions, that number would be in the single digits.

    Most people hate unions. Trying to do business in union states is extremely difficult for companies both inside and outside of those states.

    A poll can show whatever you want it to, depending on who you ask and what you ask them. I definitely think that's the case here.
    So poll after poll tells you one thing but your own self imposed ideology tell you another thing. You may take that as a sign that it is you who are marching out of step on this issue.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  8. #58
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    Re: 62% against stripping public employees' bargaining rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    Prof, imagine this.

    What if the Dems don't win back these states in 2012 and 2014? Better yet, what if the GOP wins hands down?

    These union dems are going to be faced with knowing that everything they've ever believed and taken for granted about people......was wrong.
    Share the fantasy.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  9. #59
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    Re: 62% against stripping public employees' bargaining rights

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    So poll after poll tells you one thing but your own self imposed ideology tell you another thing. You may take that as a sign that it is you who are marching out of step on this issue.
    Not to mention that as labor union membership has declined, middle class wages have stagnated.

    Again, CEOs and Major Corporations organizing to form PACs to lobby government to get all the perks: the American way.

    Working people organizing together to demand living wages for their work: apparently un-American.

  10. #60
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    Re: 62% against stripping public employees' bargaining rights

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    Even the conservative Rassmusen poll show voters do not support ending collective bargaining. Once again the Republicans stand on the wrong side of the voters.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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