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Thread: Afghan delegation confirms killing 65 civilians killed by NATO during operation

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    Re: Afghan delegation confirms killing 65 civilians killed by NATO during operation

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It doesn't matter. Killing civilians hurts our cause. What works as an argument for some here won't like work for those who care about those killed there. And it grows the threat we face.


    You understand little about combat, war, etc. Civillian casualties are a reality of war, and always will be. Doing nothing emboldens the enemy as seen on 911.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Afghan delegation confirms killing 65 civilians killed by NATO during operation

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    You understand little about combat, war, etc. Civillian casualties are a reality of war, and always will be. Doing nothing emboldens the enemy as seen on 911.
    I'm sorry, outside of actually catching bin Laden or attempting to forestall the terrorist attacks right before they happened, what is it we were supposed to have done to prevent 9/11?

    And you DO know that Boo is a veteran of the 82nd, right?
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 03-01-11 at 01:13 PM.

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    Re: Afghan delegation confirms killing 65 civilians killed by NATO during operation

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I'm sorry, outside of actually catching bin Laden or attempting to forestall the terrorist attacks right before they happened, what is it we were supposed to have done to prevent 9/11?
    It was a massive intelligence failure among many administrations. Too long a list of how the elected officials failed and the soldiers had to clean up thier messes.


    And you DO know that Boo is a veteran of the 82nd, right?

    Yes, I do. I stand by my statement, as he is not a combat veteran, as can be seen by his civillianesque view on war and combat. I appreciate him as a brother, but at the same time, he shows little understanding of war, the failure of diplomacy, and the realities of battle.
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    Re: Afghan delegation confirms killing 65 civilians killed by NATO during operation

    It was a massive intelligence failure among many administrations. Too long a list of how the elected officials failed and the soldiers had to clean up thier messes.
    I can agree with this.

    Yes, I do. I stand by my statement, as he is not a combat veteran, as can be seen by his civillianesque view on war and combat. I appreciate him as a brother, but at the same time, he shows little understanding of war, the failure of diplomacy, and the realities of battle.
    I think war/combat is definitely a visceral experience that is only understood by those who have been through it. However there has to be a distinction made between war as experienced by those at the tactical level, and the politicians and statesmen who formulate and implment at the strategic level. Not many people are qualified to comment on the former, but many are qualified to comment on the latter, and I believe that people who have been in the military at the tactical/operational, and sometimes even at general/flag level, don't necessarily make great strategists, and in our country strategy is mostly the domain of politicians (most of whom are civilians).

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    Re: Afghan delegation confirms killing 65 civilians killed by NATO during operation

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I can agree with this.



    I think war/combat is definitely a visceral experience that is only understood by those who have been through it. However there has to be a distinction made between war as experienced by those at the tactical level, and the politicians and statesmen who formulate and implment at the strategic level. Not many people are qualified to comment on the former, but many are qualified to comment on the latter, and I believe that people who have been in the military at the tactical/operational, and sometimes even at general/flag level, don't necessarily make great strategists, and in our country strategy is mostly the domain of politicians (most of whom are civilians).

    Strategy and plans all sound great until the 1st 7.62 flies by. I don't discount most of what you are saying, but I do stand by my statement, I have seen some terrible terrible things. Things I still to this day do not talk about. What I do stand up to and comment on however, is when I see "theory" and "blame" for what amounts to the reality of war. We, the US, US Troops, have been killed and maimed, avoiding civillian casualties, to suggest we are wonton in our disregard for civillian life, or that we "kill" poor iraqis soldiers who were "doing nothing but defending thier country" (USA_1 was opining this on another thread), shows just how disconnected civillians and the like are from the war fighters.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Afghan delegation confirms killing 65 civilians killed by NATO during operation

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    Strategy and plans all sound great until the 1st 7.62 flies by. I don't discount most of what you are saying, but I do stand by my statement, I have seen some terrible terrible things. Things I still to this day do not talk about. What I do stand up to and comment on however, is when I see "theory" and "blame" for what amounts to the reality of war. We, the US, US Troops, have been killed and maimed, avoiding civillian casualties, to suggest we are wonton in our disregard for civillian life, or that we "kill" poor iraqis soldiers who were "doing nothing but defending thier country" (USA_1 was opining this on another thread), shows just how disconnected civillians and the like are from the war fighters.
    I agree with this. I definitely think that crazies who characterize troops as "baby-killers" and bloodthirsty warmongers who are just itching to pull the trigger don't live within the realm of reality. However, that doesn't keep me from criticizing the decision to go to War in Iraq, or the conduct (at least in the initial stages up until about 2007) of the war itself, which was on the whole a strategic disaster. A distinction definitely needs to be drawn between the war and warriors, something which we failed to do in Vietnam and I think we are doing a better job of it today. I think the points that Boo mentioned just further reinforces the general agreement among most that counterinsurgency operations are a real bitch.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 03-01-11 at 01:39 PM.

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    Re: Afghan delegation confirms killing 65 civilians killed by NATO during operation

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I agree with this. I definitely think that crazies who characterize troops as "baby-killers" and bloodthirsty warmongers who are just itching to pull the trigger don't live within the realm of reality. However, that doesn't keep me from criticizing the decision to go to War in Iraq, or the conduct (at least in the initial stages up until about 2007) of the war itself, which was on the whole a strategic disaster. A distinction definitely needs to be drawn between the war and warriors, something which we failed to do in Vietnam and I think we are doing a better job of it today. I think the points that Boo mentioned just further reinforce the general agreement among most that counterinsurgency operations are a real bitch.


    I truly believe there was much more to the war in Iraq than meets the eye.

    The Iraq Oil-for-food Scandal

    It was a culmination of UN sanctions, oil money embezzeling of a grand scale and a no way out proposition for the US... among his bluffing about WMD and the policy set by bush's predecessor (clinton "regieme change") etc...


    I could go on and on about this etc...

    As for the war conduct? We rolled Iraq like a cigarette, How was it a strategic disaster?
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Afghan delegation confirms killing 65 civilians killed by NATO during operation

    As for the war conduct? We rolled Iraq like a cigarette, How was it a strategic disaster?
    Too long to explain; for a general understanding of the decisions that went on at the top and the results of those decisions on the ground, I read these books:

    Amazon.com: Cobra II: The Inside Story of the Invasion and Occupation of Iraq (9781400075393): Michael R. Gordon, Bernard E. Trainor: Books

    Amazon.com: Fiasco: The American Military Adventure in Iraq: Thomas E. Ricks: Books

    In essence the pre-war planning was shortsighted, and it took the Administration four years to get its act together and start dealing with Iraq intelligently starting with the surge, specops raids, Sunni Awakening etc.

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    Re: Afghan delegation confirms killing 65 civilians killed by NATO during operation

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Too long to explain; for a general understanding of the decisions that went on at the top and the results of those decisions on the ground, I read these books:

    Amazon.com: Cobra II: The Inside Story of the Invasion and Occupation of Iraq (9781400075393): Michael R. Gordon, Bernard E. Trainor: Books

    Amazon.com: Fiasco: The American Military Adventure in Iraq: Thomas E. Ricks: Books

    In essence the pre-war planning was shortsighted, and it took the Administration four years to get its act together and start dealing with Iraq intelligently starting with the surge, specops raids, Sunni Awakening etc.
    Because they were too busy trying to avoid civilian casualties. When you fight a war on such a surgical and precise level, it's going to take time.

    Can you imagine how long WW2 would have lasted, if we hadn't bombed Germany and Japan? Or the Civil War, had Sherman waged total war on Georgia and South Carolina?

    Allied ordnance killed 15,000 French civilians during the invasion of Normandy.
    Last edited by apdst; 03-01-11 at 04:29 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Afghan delegation confirms killing 65 civilians killed by NATO during operation

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Because they were too busy trying to avoid civilian casualties. When you fight a war on such a surgical and precise level, it's going to take time.

    Can you imagine how long WW2 would have lasted, if we hadn't bombed Germany and Japan? Or the Civil War, had Sherman waged total war on Georgia and South Carolina?

    Allied ordnance killed 15,000 French civilians during the invasion of Normandy.
    Are you saying they didn't give a **** about civilian casualties starting circa 2007 when the DID start getting their act together? The reason 2003-2007 were so ****ed up is because the administration didn't see an insurgency coming and were absolutely clueless about how to deal with it. They had disbanded the Iraqi army and marginalized all Baathists within the country, the CPA was completely ineffective at coordinating the civilian and military side of things, and in addition you had things like Abu Ghraib which was the result of using reservists as prison guards and interrogators. The incompetence that characterized the conduct of the Iraq War pre-surge had nothing to do with trying to avoid unnecessary casualties and everything to do with how the administration didn't have a clue about how to prosecute a counterinsurgency.

    I also love how you keep on citing WWII examples when those wars were completely different animals. Defeating a nation-state and its army is not the same as fighting a counterinsurgency.

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