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Thread: Afghan delegation confirms killing 65 civilians killed by NATO during operation

  1. #151
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    Re: Afghan delegation confirms killing 65 civilians killed by NATO during operation

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane View Post
    the Afghan war was planned before 9-11

    "On 9 September 2001, Bush was presented with a draft of a national security presidential directive outlining a global campaign of military, diplomatic and intelligence action targeting al-Qaeda, buttressed by the threat of war. According to NBC News: `President Bush was expected to sign detailed plans for a worldwide war against al-Qaeda . . . but did not have the chance before the terrorist attacks . . . The directive, as described to NBC News, was essentially the same war plan as the one put into action after 11 September. The administration most likely was able to respond so quickly . . . because it simply had to pull the plans "off the shelf".'

    "Finally, BBC News, 18 September 2001: `Niak Naik, a former Pakistan foreign secretary, was told by senior American officials in mid-July that military action against Afghanistan would go ahead by the middle of October. It was Naik's view that Washington would not drop its war for Afghanistan even if bin Laden were to be surrendered immediately by the Taliban.'

    The Enemy Withi, by Gore Vidal, 10/27/02
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Mars View Post
    We've anticipated and practiced lots military operations. The vast majority have never been executed.

    It's called planning. It's going on right now at a US military base near you.
    Yeah, that Grenada thing helped dispell the Viernam syndrome. Ask Clint Eastwood!

    Quote Originally Posted by jambalaya View Post
    Do you believe everything you read?
    Only in the foreign press. Want more sources?

    Afghans: 65 civilians killed in NATO operation - Washington Times

    Pakistan News Service - PakTribune

  2. #152
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    Re: Afghan delegation confirms killing 65 civilians killed by NATO during operation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Mars View Post
    What do you do when jihadis take children with them to fight?
    Despite your scenario being incredibly vague, you should follow the directives of the commanding general in the region (ie - do not use force if civilians are present unless in self-defense).

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    Re: Afghan delegation confirms killing 65 civilians killed by NATO during operation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Mars View Post
    The US and NATO forces take great pains to avoid civilian casualties and there is no "wanton destruction of civilian property".
    In case you have reading comprehension problems, I have already stated NATO goes through a great deal to avoid civilian casualties. However, there is widespread disregard for civilian property and this is apparent from the doubling of civilian casualties in Afghanistan over the past two years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Mars View Post
    jihadis hide behind women and children and then blame their deaths on US or NATO forces.

    They did the same thing in Iraq. It didn't work for them there and it won't work for them in Afghanistan despite the best efforts of al-Jazeera and other 'media' sources.
    So when they are hiding behind civilians, do you think that is an appropriate time to target them? Because that is not how you defeat an insurgency. And when Afghans are starting to say NATO is just as bad as the Taliban, then you know you have a problem.

  4. #154
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    Re: Afghan delegation confirms killing 65 civilians killed by NATO during operation

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Again, they didn't have to recruit. Iraqis took their name. 10% does not make up a heavy investment. Seriously. It doesn't. And again, those who came were people who did not belong to any terrorist group before.
    It does matter when the 10% makes up 90% of the suicide bombers killing scores of innocent people. Thousands of foreign jihadis flooded into Iraq before and after OIF. We can disagree about the effectiveness of the foreign jihadis that caused such mayhem in Iraq, and that's fine.

    You can research the numbers. I already did that a long time ago. We killed well over a thousand foreign fighters at objectives Moe, Larry and Curly on April 7th, 2003.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Few publications got more things wrong than the Weekly Standard. But source aside, you believe everything the enemy says? This would be a flaw in your thinking IMHO. We can't judge by what is said, but would do better to measure what was done. They did not invest heavily in Iraq, as they won the second we went in. Going in gave them everything they did not have before, a recruitment tool, prestige, and a way to watch us spend lives and money, thus hurting us. They needed nothing more than that.
    The Weekly Standard is a very credible source. They are Conservative no doubt, but very objective. I’ve been reading both the WS and NR for years. Both were very critical of Bush and especially post OIF Iraq.

    I don’t believe OBL’s statements about the reasons for his joining the jihadis, but I believe he thinks the people he’s trying to recruit will believe his crapola. That’s why he’s spewing it.

    The fact remains OBL and his lieutenants’ repeatedly stated Iraq was their focus at the time. They also sent in thousands of foreign jihadis to attack innocent people. They were soundly defeated. I don’t understand how that equates to a recruiting bonanza for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Iraqis were largely killed by Iraqis, us merely the referee. But, there would have been no civil war plus without or invasion. You can't remove our responsibility for those lives.
    Iraqi’s who joined AQI for money and agreed to slaughter their own citizens are not the responsibility, nor a consequence of, the coalition nations liberating Iraq.

    Speaking of Iraqi’s I’d rather focus on the hundreds of thousands who have decided to fight for their country instead of against it.
    Last edited by Ron Mars; 03-04-11 at 11:02 PM.
    The national security of the United States can never be left in the hands of liberals.

  5. #155
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    Re: Afghan delegation confirms killing 65 civilians killed by NATO during operation

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane View Post
    Yeah, that Grenada thing helped dispell the Viernam syndrome.
    I'd say Desert Storm, Bosnia and OIF had more to do with it than Grenada.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kane View Post
    Only in the foreign press. Want more sources?
    A little over a year ago if memory serves, NATO aircraft in Afghanistan attacked a building jihadis were fighting from and over two dozen civilians were killed. The 'foreign press' and many others here in America blamed their deaths on NATO. Even 0bama and Hillary apologized for the incident.

    It turned out the civilians had been shot by the jihadis either before or after the aircraft attacked. I believe very little of what comes out of the 'foreign press' these days.
    The national security of the United States can never be left in the hands of liberals.

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    Re: Afghan delegation confirms killing 65 civilians killed by NATO during operation

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    Despite your scenario being incredibly vague, you should follow the directives of the commanding general in the region (ie - do not use force if civilians are present unless in self-defense).
    And that's exactly what US forces are doing in Iraq and NATO is doing in Afghanistan.

    My scenario isn't vague, it's a well known and often used jihadi tactic.

    They are using our rules of engagement against us.
    The national security of the United States can never be left in the hands of liberals.

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    Re: Afghan delegation confirms killing 65 civilians killed by NATO during operation

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    In case you have reading comprehension problems, I have already stated NATO goes through a great deal to avoid civilian casualties. However, there is widespread disregard for civilian property and this is apparent from the doubling of civilian casualties in Afghanistan over the past two years.
    My reading comprehension is just fine. Thanks for asking.

    The civilian casualties have increased in Afghanistan because the level of combat has increased and the tactics used by jihadis.

    0bama is putting up a fight and I support him and the people he sends over there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    So when they are hiding behind civilians, do you think that is an appropriate time to target them? Because that is not how you defeat an insurgency. And when Afghans are starting to say NATO is just as bad as the Taliban, then you know you have a problem.
    If we know there are civilians in the immediate area we cease fire when possible. Often, jihadis bring civilians with them to the fight and the troops on the ground don't always know. The tactics jihadis are using places civilians squarely on the battlefield and is the cause of the majority of the civilians killed or wounded IMO.

    And you make a good point. The jihadis are winning the propaganda war if Afghan's see NATO as no different than they are.
    The national security of the United States can never be left in the hands of liberals.

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    Re: Afghan delegation confirms killing 65 civilians killed by NATO during operation

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane View Post
    the Afghan war was planned before 9-11

    "On 9 September 2001, Bush was presented with a draft of a national security presidential directive outlining a global campaign of military, diplomatic and intelligence action targeting al-Qaeda, buttressed by the threat of war. According to NBC News: `President Bush was expected to sign detailed plans for a worldwide war against al-Qaeda . . . but did not have the chance before the terrorist attacks . . . The directive, as described to NBC News, was essentially the same war plan as the one put into action after 11 September. The administration most likely was able to respond so quickly . . . because it simply had to pull the plans "off the shelf".'

    "Finally, BBC News, 18 September 2001: `Niak Naik, a former Pakistan foreign secretary, was told by senior American officials in mid-July that military action against Afghanistan would go ahead by the middle of October. It was Naik's view that Washington would not drop its war for Afghanistan even if bin Laden were to be surrendered immediately by the Taliban.'

    The Enemy Withi, by Gore Vidal, 10/27/02
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Mars View Post
    We've anticipated and practiced lots military operations. The vast majority have never been executed.

    It's called planning. It's going on right now at a US military base near you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Mars View Post
    The US and NATO forces take great pains to avoid civilian casualties and there is no "wanton destruction of civilian property".

    jihadis hide behind women and children and then blame their deaths on US or NATO forces.

    They did the same thing in Iraq. It didn't work for them there and it won't work for them in Afghanistan despite the best efforts of al-Jazeera and other 'media' sources.
    I don't want you to take this thread as personal critique if you're in the military. It begs an answer is a response from the policy makers, Obama, (NeoCon in liberal clothing) does this not prove its bad policy? The sacrifice too great for the soldiers as well as civillians?

    Anyway, here is a video about the media and the war on terror ...

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    Re: Afghan delegation confirms killing 65 civilians killed by NATO during operation

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane View Post
    I don't want you to take this thread as personal critique if you're in the military. It begs an answer is a response from the policy makers, Obama, (NeoCon in liberal clothing) does this not prove its bad policy? The sacrifice too great for the soldiers as well as civillians?
    That children were unintentionally killed by NATO does not mean our policy of fighting Islamic jihadis in Afghanistan is 'bad'.

    I have a lot of problems with the way 0bama is fighting in Afghanistan. But I support him and the people he sends to fight.

    It's time to consider the human cost if we don't fight Islamic jihadis killing innocent people all over the world.

    What's a neocon to you?

    BTW, I served in the USAF from '83-'89.
    Last edited by Ron Mars; 03-06-11 at 10:01 PM.
    The national security of the United States can never be left in the hands of liberals.

  10. #160
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    Re: Afghan delegation confirms killing 65 civilians killed by NATO during operation

    [QUOTE=Ron Mars;1059326924]
    It does matter when the 10% makes up 90% of the suicide bombers killing scores of innocent people. Thousands of foreign jihadis flooded into Iraq before and after OIF. We can disagree about the effectiveness of the foreign jihadis that caused such mayhem in Iraq, and that's fine.

    You can research the numbers. I already did that a long time ago. We killed well over a thousand foreign fighters at objectives Moe, Larry and Curly on April 7th, 2003.
    No, that just makes them the fonder, not those fighting. And 1000 fighters as compared to 100,000 civilians is nothing. And in fact, it is nothing by any measure, as these are people not associated with any terrorist group before we invaded Iraq. This means we did nothing to organizations as they were prior to invasion. We only took on new members, newbees, who would not have been otherwised part of the calulation.

    And I know the numbers well.


    The Weekly Standard is a very credible source. They are Conservative no doubt, but very objective. I’ve been reading both the WS and NR for years. Both were very critical of Bush and especially post OIF Iraq.
    No, the WS is not a credible source. They got much wrong concerning Iraq. And they allowed inaccurate information, mostly from Hayes as I remember, to be printed with no consequences. This makes them a poor source. It isn't about being critical of Bush, or even bais, but about accuracy. I don't know what it takes to get that through the thinking on your side of the isle. Accuracy matters.

    I don’t believe OBL’s statements about the reasons for his joining the jihadis, but I believe he thinks the people he’s trying to recruit will believe his crapola. That’s why he’s spewing it.

    The fact remains OBL and his lieutenants’ repeatedly stated Iraq was their focus at the time. They also sent in thousands of foreign jihadis to attack innocent people. They were soundly defeated. I don’t understand how that equates to a recruiting bonanza for them.
    Of course he does, so he says **** that will appealk to them. It calls everythign important, and calls on them, which is why you can't take his word as gospel. You ahve to judge his actions, and he did not invest heavily in Iraq. He wanted us hurt there, and that happened the second we invaded. Everything else, from his POV was gravy.


    Iraqi’s who joined AQI for money and agreed to slaughter their own citizens are not the responsibility, nor a consequence of, the coalition nations liberating Iraq.

    Speaking of Iraqi’s I’d rather focus on the hundreds of thousands who have decided to fight for their country instead of against it.
    Actually they are, no matter their reasoning. We don't bring war there, this doesn't happen. You can't be reckless and not man up and be responsible. When and if Iraq is ever a strong and peaceful nation it will eb because Iraqis made it so. Our arrogance was in thinking we could make any country something we want them to be. And then to want prasie for for bringing war, death and misery to them, and all after we waited untill Saddam was done with his worse.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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