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Thread: Afghan delegation confirms killing 65 civilians killed by NATO during operation

  1. #101
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    Re: Afghan delegation confirms killing 65 civilians killed by NATO during operation

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    Not today, you're right.

    It used to be.
    Conventional Land Army Vs. Insurgency.

    There's a big difference between fighting this:



    And fighting this:


  2. #102
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    Re: Afghan delegation confirms killing 65 civilians killed by NATO during operation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Mars View Post
    Of course it matters if their methods are effective. If their methods were ineffective we wouldn't be talking about it or have to develop an effective strategery to counter it.



    What strategery do you use against an enemy who straps children to their chests in an effort to blame their deaths on NATO or US forces?

    We have no choice but to fight and defeat them.
    Well, you don't shoot the children, but it does show that an army, large and blunt, may not be the best method for fighting small groups that can hide this way. As always, I think invasion and using the entire military for this job was a foolish move.

    And we have always had a choice. By our choices so far, we've mostly helped then and have not effectively fought them. Instead we've fought others, like in the civil war in Iraq, that our enemies have taken advantage of to hurt us as much or more than hurt them.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  3. #103
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    Re: Afghan delegation confirms killing 65 civilians killed by NATO during operation

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    By our choices so far, we've mostly helped then and have not effectively fought them. Instead we've fought others, like in the civil war in Iraq, that our enemies have taken advantage of to hurt us as much or more than hurt them.
    not even coherent, let alone reasonable

  4. #104
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    Re: Afghan delegation confirms killing 65 civilians killed by NATO during operation

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Well, you don't shoot the children, but it does show that an army, large and blunt, may not be the best method for fighting small groups that can hide this way. As always, I think invasion and using the entire military for this job was a foolish move.
    As far as Iraq, using a very large and blunt army was the only way to topple Saddam and the tens of thousands of loyal military forces, fedayeen and foreigners who fought to the death for him. The US made lots of bad decisions in Iraq after Saddam was toppled, both military and political. We made lots of good ones as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    And we have always had a choice. By our choices so far, we've mostly helped then and have not effectively fought them. Instead we've fought others, like in the civil war in Iraq, that our enemies have taken advantage of to hurt us as much or more than hurt them.
    I disagree with that theory. What’s the recruiting slogan: “Sign here if you want to kill other Muslims”

    Iraq became a magnet for al-Qaeda and they showed up by the thousands. They promptly proceeded to kill and maim Iraqi civilians by the score. I don’t believe that fact went unnoticed by Muslims around the world. It’s kind of hard to hide the fact that it was Islamic jihadis, not US forces, that were blowing up mosques and deliberately killing innocent Muslims despite the best efforts of al-Jazeera.
    The national security of the United States can never be left in the hands of liberals.

  5. #105
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    Re: Afghan delegation confirms killing 65 civilians killed by NATO during operation

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    That may be true. But I'm asking you to explain.
    Give it up boo, its like asking tinnitus why its there.
    The haggardness of poverty is everywhere seen contrasted with the sleekness of wealth, the exhorted labor of some compensating for the idleness of others, wretched hovels by the side of stately colonnades, the rags of indigence blended with the ensigns of opulence; in a word, the most useless profusion in the midst of the most urgent wants.Jean-Baptiste Say

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    Re: Afghan delegation confirms killing 65 civilians killed by NATO during operation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Mars View Post
    As far as Iraq, using a very large and blunt army was the only way to topple Saddam and the tens of thousands of loyal military forces, fedayeen and foreigners who fought to the death for him. The US made lots of bad decisions in Iraq after Saddam was toppled, both military and political. We made lots of good ones as well.
    The worse decisions was invading in the first place. There was no need for it, nor was it our job to topple him. And what happened in Iraq was that the void needed to be filled and iraqis started fighting each other, just as Iraqis predicted before the war. Many knew how badly Iraq would go before going in. There was plenty of foresight, just no one in charge who would listen.


    I disagree with that theory. What’s the recruiting slogan: “Sign here if you want to kill other Muslims”

    Iraq became a magnet for al-Qaeda and they showed up by the thousands. They promptly proceeded to kill and maim Iraqi civilians by the score. I don’t believe that fact went unnoticed by Muslims around the world. It’s kind of hard to hide the fact that it was Islamic jihadis, not US forces, that were blowing up mosques and deliberately killing innocent Muslims despite the best efforts of al-Jazeera.
    That's not really true. Most of those who showed up, a small number, had no connection to terroist groups before Iraq. Instead, we inpired people to join. So, we were nt thinning their numbers, but increasing them, which is counter productive.

    And it doesn't matter who was killing them. The killing was because of the war and destabilaztion we brought to Iraq. We can't fain no responsibility.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Afghan delegation confirms killing 65 civilians killed by NATO during operation

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    The worse decisions was invading in the first place. There was no need for it, nor was it our job to topple him. And what happened in Iraq was that the void needed to be filled and iraqis started fighting each other, just as Iraqis predicted before the war. Many knew how badly Iraq would go before going in. There was plenty of foresight, just no one in charge who would listen.
    I don't remember anyone predicting al-Qaeda and pals would flood into Iraq and that Iran would fund, arm, and support them. They did their level best to start a war between Sunni and Shia in Iraq by killing people and destroying religious symbols. They failed. There were lots of predictions on all sides about what would happen. As usual, most of them were wrong.

    I respect the opinion that we should not have gone into Iraq. There are some good arguments why we should not have. I disagree and believe it was the right thing to do.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    That's not really true. Most of those who showed up, a small number, had no connection to terroist groups before Iraq. Instead, we inpired people to join. So, we were nt thinning their numbers, but increasing them, which is counter productive.

    And it doesn't matter who was killing them. The killing was because of the war and destabilaztion we brought to Iraq. We can't fain no responsibility.
    It's absolutely true. al-Qaeda made Iraq a central battlefield. Thousands of jihadis came into Iraq after Saddam was toppled. They were soundly defeated.

    Of course it matters who’s killing them and why. It also matters who risked their own lives to protect them. The very actions of US forces as opposed to jihadis in Iraq have proven the jihadi ideology and propaganda to be a fraud.
    The national security of the United States can never be left in the hands of liberals.

  8. #108
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    Re: Afghan delegation confirms killing 65 civilians killed by NATO during operation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Mars View Post
    I don't remember anyone predicting al-Qaeda and pals would flood into Iraq and that Iran would fund, arm, and support them. They did their level best to start a war between Sunni and Shia in Iraq by killing people and destroying religious symbols. They failed. There were lots of predictions on all sides about what would happen. As usual, most of them were wrong.

    I respect the opinion that we should not have gone into Iraq. There are some good arguments why we should not have. I disagree and believe it was the right thing to do.
    1. Al Qaeda didn't. Al Qaeda in Iraq was made up overwhelmingly of Iraqis who took the name. But if you type fly paper strategy, you will see some actually arguing that the Iraqi people should be the bait for bringing Al Qeada into their country. That's not exactly what happened, as I said, there was little of those connected to any group prior to taking up arms in Iraq. These were mostly Iraqis, and those coming into the country were mostly new recruits.

    2. You can't start a war between people not already willing to fight each other. Anyone looking at the history ahd to know this was going to be a problem. The divisions are artificial and deep seeded.

    3. I can't argue what you think any more than I can argue what I think. But I can argue that it wasn't a good idea, and here's why: a. It cost too much in terms of lives and money both, and for little to no real gain. b. At the end of the day, it favors Iran. At best, it allows for more friendly relations between the two nations. At worse, Iraq eventually alines with Iran. c. It ebenfitted our enemy by helping with recruitment, adding to their status (being important enough to have such a powerful nation openly decalre war agains thems), and hurt our reputation everywhere.

    It's absolutely true. al-Qaeda made Iraq a central battlefield. Thousands of jihadis came into Iraq after Saddam was toppled. They were soundly defeated.

    Of course it matters who’s killing them and why. It also matters who risked their own lives to protect them. The very actions of US forces as opposed to jihadis in Iraq have proven the jihadi ideology and propaganda to be a fraud.
    No, that's conservative myth. Iraq was a civil war plus. Or enemies merely were smart and took advantage of it and got more bang for our buck. And very few outsiders came. Of those fighting, only some 5% were foriegn (and only an estimated 5% of those ever had any connection to any terrorist group prior to coming to Iraq). That's a small percentage. Outsiders did not invest heavily, they just talked a lot because it keep it going longer and we were too easily led on this.

    if it were any kind of CENTRAL battlefield, our eneimies would have invest much more. Instead, they got training and used Iraqis. This makes Iraq a loss for us no matter what eventually happens in Iraq.

    And no, I still maintain it does not matter who is doing the killing because we brought the war. With us invading, those 100,000 would not have been killed. At the end of the day we cannot pretend that isn't true. So while soliders did a great job, and may well have made inroads with some, the act itself, of which or leaders hold responsibility, cannot be divorced from the consequences.
    Last edited by Boo Radley; 03-03-11 at 03:55 PM.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  9. #109
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    Re: Afghan delegation confirms killing 65 civilians killed by NATO during operation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    Conventional Land Army Vs. Insurgency.

    There's a big difference between fighting this:



    And fighting this:

    Care to explain the difference from a tactical point of view? Please, be specific and use tactical principles in your explanation. I don't think you can do it, but I reckon I owe you a shot.

    Like always, thanks in advance.
    Last edited by apdst; 03-03-11 at 05:43 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  10. #110
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    Re: Afghan delegation confirms killing 65 civilians killed by NATO during operation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    Conventional Land Army Vs. Insurgency.

    There's a big difference between fighting this:



    And fighting this:

    Oh, wait! The guys at the tops are carrying shovels and the guys at the bottom have a rocket launcher! You're right, there is a difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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