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Thread: All Providence teachers receive layoff notices

  1. #11
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    Re: All Providence teachers receive layoff notices

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Yank View Post
    Who's to say which teachers are the better? With the current state of our education in our country I'd say that a change may do some good at least in some cases.

    Since, in most unions you cant get rid of alot of the bad teachers because of the protection of the union now they will be able to jetison them. Of course you couls lose some good ones too but I'd be willing to bet there are good ones out there without jobs considering the curent unemployment rate. I hear Detroit has a few that are going to be looking for work & I'd be willing to bet alot of them would work without a Union as opposed to not working at all.
    Generally qualified teachers or at least those who are good at their job, I doubt will stay for very long at the schools/districts that are underpaying them. Leaving the unqualified iunskilled ones to do the job.

    In the case of unions I am not against firing the whole bunch and hiring teachers on an individual basis if possible, I am against though preventing people from forming unions or allowing the union to negotiate contracts regarding what compensation its members get for their services.

    If the politicians are too weak to be able to stand up to a union, the politician needs to be replaced with some that can do the job
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    Re: All Providence teachers receive layoff notices

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Yank View Post
    Who's to say which teachers are the better? With the current state of our education in our country I'd say that a change may do some good at least in some cases.

    Since, in most unions you cant get rid of alot of the bad teachers because of the protection of the union now they will be able to jetison them. Of course you couls lose some good ones too but I'd be willing to bet there are good ones out there without jobs considering the curent unemployment rate. I hear Detroit has a few that are going to be looking for work & I'd be willing to bet alot of them would work without a Union as opposed to not working at all.
    why do people insist that bad teachers cannot be fired
    there is no contract i am aware of which prevents the termination of a union employee if the basis for termination is legitimate
    retaining bad teachers is a very strong indicator of weak/lazy management
    sound management would terminate the weak performers because they are weak performers. management would have to document its basis to establish that the teacher/employee was being terminated for just cause
    and that is the rub. the managers would have to expend effort to document the file and follow the contract provisions for termination
    there are bad teachers in the education system; often co-located with inferior school managers
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
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    Re: All Providence teachers receive layoff notices

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    Yes it is

    Contract is up, and they dont want to negotiate lower compensation, fire them. Hire people to teach at a lower cost, while not removing peoples right to negotiate terms of compensation

    Reagan did it to the Air traffic controllers
    Reagan fired the air traffic controllers, because they violated their contract by going on strike. Basically, the strike was illegal.
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    Re: All Providence teachers receive layoff notices

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    I'll laugh my ass off when/if the state decides to hire non-union teachers. That would imo teach unions one hell of a lesson about being greedy aholes. (no pun intended about the "teach unions" bit)
    Yeah because that worked so well with the air traffic controllers :P
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    Re: All Providence teachers receive layoff notices

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    why do people insist that bad teachers cannot be fired
    there is no contract i am aware of which prevents the termination of a union employee if the basis for termination is legitimate
    Actually, this is a huge problem in Providence Public School District. The teachers union does not recognize ANY rubric for measuring a teachers effectiveness. This means that the administration cannot fire a teacher simply for being a bad teacher, because the union allows no definition for "bad teacher". It is nearly impossible to fire a teacher unless they have committed a crime. When the administration needs to cut back on teachers, the unions insist the only teachers with the least seniority are laid off. This usually results in firing the least jaded teachers with the most modern methods of teaching.

    Unions will fail the communities they are a part of unless they use merit based pay and merit based hiring/firing/promotion. Seniority is not an adequate measure of a persons ability to perform a job. Merit based achievement is the bedrock of capitalism, and no sector of the American economy, especially not the public sector, can succeed without it.

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    Re: All Providence teachers receive layoff notices

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    I doubt the childern will be better off with many under paid and underqualified teachers then fewer well qualified teachers.

    When little Johnny asks a science question and the high school dropout teaching Grade 9 science cant answer the question and has to google the answer, the childern will not be well served
    There are thousands of people out there that would make better teachers than these union jokers we tolerate these days.

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    Re: All Providence teachers receive layoff notices

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
    Actually, this is a huge problem in Providence Public School District. The teachers union does not recognize ANY rubric for measuring a teachers effectiveness. This means that the administration cannot fire a teacher simply for being a bad teacher, because the union allows no definition for "bad teacher". It is nearly impossible to fire a teacher unless they have committed a crime. When the administration needs to cut back on teachers, the unions insist the only teachers with the least seniority are laid off. This usually results in firing the least jaded teachers with the most modern methods of teaching.

    Unions will fail the communities they are a part of unless they use merit based pay and merit based hiring/firing/promotion. Seniority is not an adequate measure of a persons ability to perform a job. Merit based achievement is the bedrock of capitalism, and no sector of the American economy, especially not the public sector, can succeed without it.
    problem is that there is no legitimate methodology to objectively evaluate the teacher
    there needs to be. but the one used by the self deposed DC schools administrator was quite flawed
    if my class is filled with high achieving students from homes where education is encouraged and assisted, then my class is going to look great on end of year exams. chances are, they could have passed them on the first day of school
    on the other hand, if i have a class of special needs students from homes where there is little ability and/or inclination to support the student to do well in school, then that class is likely going to perform marginally, even with an excellent teacher at the helm
    these student widgets are not all alike. and we cannot evaluate them using industrial engineering evaluation techniques like we would identical widgets on an assembly line
    but that is what they did in DC
    with today's computers, there is NO excuse for not having tracking data on the performance of every student in every class room. with that data, we could then examine how the students, individually and as a class, were performing when compared to where they were when they began receiving instruction from a particular teacher. then you would have an objective metric to use to examine teacher (and student) performance
    with such data, there is no way the union would be able to successfully defend weak teachers from either being forced to improve or be terminated
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: All Providence teachers receive layoff notices

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    problem is that there is no legitimate methodology to objectively evaluate the teacher
    there needs to be. but the one used by the self deposed DC schools administrator was quite flawed
    if my class is filled with high achieving students from homes where education is encouraged and assisted, then my class is going to look great on end of year exams. chances are, they could have passed them on the first day of school
    on the other hand, if i have a class of special needs students from homes where there is little ability and/or inclination to support the student to do well in school, then that class is likely going to perform marginally, even with an excellent teacher at the helm
    these student widgets are not all alike. and we cannot evaluate them using industrial engineering evaluation techniques like we would identical widgets on an assembly line
    but that is what they did in DC
    with today's computers, there is NO excuse for not having tracking data on the performance of every student in every class room. with that data, we could then examine how the students, individually and as a class, were performing when compared to where they were when they began receiving instruction from a particular teacher. then you would have an objective metric to use to examine teacher (and student) performance
    with such data, there is no way the union would be able to successfully defend weak teachers from either being forced to improve or be terminated
    Have you ever known a union to allow for an honest evaluation of their members?

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    Re: All Providence teachers receive layoff notices

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    Have you ever known a union to allow for an honest evaluation of their members?
    Yes. How many unions have you been in?

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    Re: All Providence teachers receive layoff notices

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    Have you ever known a union to allow for an honest evaluation of their members?
    absolutely. why would we not
    do you like to be surrounded by incompetents and those who shirk their responsibilities
    the law requires the union to represent all bargaining unit employees, whether they are dues paying union members or if they are non-dues paying bargaining unit members
    we cannot refuse to represent the employee. under the law it is our fiduciary responsibility to represent them. no matter if they are guilty as hell
    the problem comes when the lazy manager refuses to do his/her job of evidencing the guilt of an employee's actions and/or their inability to perform as is required to accomplish the mission of the organization. in this particular instance, to effectively teach our kids
    i cannot defend the indefensible
    but management must prove the teacher is without a defense
    management must initiate the action to rid the system of a weak teacher
    the union is doing its job
    unfortunately, school management is not
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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