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Obama Administration Drops Defense of Anti-Gay Marriage Law

OscarB63 said:
sometimes you must do a little evil to prevent an even greater evil. must be nice to spend your entire life safe and secure and never put your safety on the line for the good of others.
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I don't buy that. I think it is just an excuse, espeically since it is highly unlikely you'd ever have the right person with the right knowledge. it's more likely that you'd just get msiinformation, or false confessions, which torture is really good for.
 
Boo Radley said:
I don't buy that. I think it is just an excuse, espeically since it is highly unlikely you'd ever have the right person with the right knowledge. it's more likely that you'd just get msiinformation, or false confessions, which torture is really good for.
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tell that to the guys who have actually been on the front lines in a combat situation
 
Boo Radley said:
I more concerned that anyone can find a way to excuse torture. Guess we're both in the same boat for different reasons. I'm OK where I am. :coffeepap
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Since when has Torture ever been legal in the United States? No one can make any kind of intellectually honest argument that proves anyone has ever been tortured, the best any liberal can produce is a SUBJECTIVE opinion that Water Boarding is somehow an act of physical torture when no one can produce any OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE that proves either mental or physical damage has resulted from this ACT of INTERROGATION...hell even our own troops go through the procedure with no ill effect and every time such an interrogation has taken place there has been an MD on site that confirms no physical harm has come to the person being questioned.

Thus, Torture has never been allowed by our US Military, anytime such was suspected said individuals where charged with a Crime. And why has Torture even being discussed on a thread whose topic is the overreaching Authority this potus has engaged in an unconstitutional and totalitarian manner?
 
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Walter said:
Since when has Torture ever been legal in the United States? No one can make any kind of intellectually honest argument that proves anyone has ever been tortured, the best any liberal can produce is a SUBJECTIVE opinion that Water Boarding is somehow an act of physical torture when no one can produce any OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE that proves either mental or physical damage has resulted from this ACT of INTERROGATION...hell even our own troops go through the procedure with no ill effect and every time such an interrogation has taken place there has been an MD on site that confirms no physical harm has come to the person being questioned.

Thus, Torture has never been allowed by our US Military, anytime such was suspected said individuals where charged with a Crime. And why has Torture even being discussed on a thread whose topic is the overreaching Authority this potus has engaged in an unconstitutional and totalitarian manner.
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Don't start that nonsense. Waterboarding has always been considered torture, but the US. We can go down that road again, siting all the same sources, where we've prosecuted people, including our own people for waterbaording. You can then pretend this was a different procedure, noting meaningless differences. I can point that out.

It's all rather pointless. It was torture. And no torturing of the language will change that.
 
Walter said:
Since when has Torture ever been legal in the United States? No one can make any kind of intellectually honest argument that proves anyone has ever been tortured, the best any liberal can produce is a SUBJECTIVE opinion that Water Boarding is somehow an act of physical torture when no one can produce any OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE that proves either mental or physical damage has resulted from this ACT of INTERROGATION...hell even our own troops go through the procedure with no ill effect and every time such an interrogation has taken place there has been an MD on site that confirms no physical harm has come to the person being questioned.

Thus, Torture has never been allowed by our US Military, anytime such was suspected said individuals where charged with a Crime. And why has Torture even being discussed on a thread whose topic is the overreaching Authority this potus has engaged in an unconstitutional and totalitarian manner?
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Subjective? It is illegal under international law. We signed a UN agreement saying that we won't torture, and the UN declared waterboarding torture. We, as a nation, have prosecuted people for waterboarding. Which, by the way, I believe in the justice system they call that a precedent.

If we have prosecuted people for waterboarding, don't you think that means the US believes waterboarding is illegal?
 
OscarB63 said:
tell that to the guys who have actually been on the front lines in a combat situation
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I have and will continue to do so. Some of them have even agreed. you might remember it was actually people in the military who complained from the begining.
 
Boo Radley said:
Don't start that nonsense. Waterboarding has always been considered torture, but the US. We can go down that road again, siting all the same sources, where we've prosecuted people, including our own people for waterbaording. You can then pretend this was a different procedure, noting meaningless differences. I can point that out.

It's all rather pointless. It was torture. And no torturing of the language will change that.
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Says Who? You? So the military uses torture on our troops? Really? Its a simple thing....just produce the physical evidence of any one POW that has been documented as being physically harmed by this procedure. Hell, no mental status cannot be considered as torture because of the Subjective Nature of that supposed Science (psychology, which in reality is not a science but a philosophy as there is no objective method to determine the facts of any position taken by the patient).....anyone can say they have been mentally tortured, its torture to me to see a pompous ass liberal attempt to make the charge of torture stick when he/she cannot produce any objective proof thereof.
 
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whysoserious said:
Subjective? It is illegal under international law. We signed a UN agreement saying that we won't torture, and the UN declared waterboarding torture. We, as a nation, have prosecuted people for waterboarding. Which, by the way, I believe in the justice system they call that a precedent.

If we have prosecuted people for waterboarding, don't you think that means the US believes waterboarding is illegal?
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The United States has signed no Agreement with any international terrorist organization that fights under no banner that is part of any compact agreement among STATES. Once again, SUBJECTIVE rhetoric is applied in an attempt to deflect away from the OBJECTIVE evidence. Its simple....produce one injured pow that has been subjected to this...(wink, wink, TORTURE), just one. You would think that if someone is being tortured there would be evidence of that torture, especially when that interrogation method was used under the supervision of a PHYSICIAN.

Why do you not produce the OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE that confirms the United States has prosecuted anyone for the sole purpose of defining waterboarding as torture. Produce the evidence where the US has prosecuted anyone for the sole purpose of using this interrogation method.
 
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whysoserious said:
So why are you on a debate board? To give hand jobs to other conservatives and pat each other on the back? If you don't like debating, don't debate. It's that easy.

Also, your hatred of liberalism is a bit scary. Might want to get yourself checked out at a shrink. :(
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I've debated the issue umpteen million times. At this juncture of my "debating" career, I rpefer to just poke fun at those that are sitting in the fox holes.. :)


Tim-
 
CriticalThought said:
Bush didn't declare that laws were unconstitutional and then enforce them like Obama is doing, he did the opposite. He never declared them unconstitutional but simply didn't enforce them. Look at how he tortured prisoners. That is considerably worse. Case closed.
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Actually, I'm looking for another example comparable to the DOMA situation. A President declares a voted on, signed bill which is currently law, unconstitutional and then refuses to defend that law.
 
Ockham said:
Actually, I'm looking for another example comparable to the DOMA situation. A President declares a voted on, signed bill which is currently law, unconstitutional and then refuses to defend that law.
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There is no such animal that exists. The only reason such a tactic is being engaged by the supporters of the Gay Agenda is because of the legislation in the State of Connecticut. They are attempting to once again circumvent the voice of the people and incorporate a LAW FROM THE BENCH instead of through the house of Legislation...its that simple. Connecticut is the ONLY STATE that could be bought by the Gay Community, why? Because this state does not allow the CITIZENS to reform any law once it has been passed by their SUPPOSED representatives...and it is one of the smallest states in population. Now they wish to make all the states share in their law supported by less than .5% of the total US POPULATION. Its simply another GRIFT to purchase votes as the unions are going down in flames.

Hell the State of California just passed an amendment supporting Traditional Marriage.....this coming from the most liberal state in the union by population. Now we are all to abide by a law passed by one little north eastern state that is so corrupt that it will not even allow its citizens the chance to have a referendum?
 
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Walter said:
The United States has signed no Agreement with any international terrorist organization that fights under no banner that is part of any compact agreement among STATES. Once again, SUBJECTIVE rhetoric is applied in an attempt to deflect away from the OBJECTIVE evidence. Its simple....produce one injured pow that has been subjected to this...(wink, wink, TORTURE), just one. You would think that if someone is being tortured there would be evidence of that torture, especially when that interrogation method was used under the supervision of a PHYSICIAN.

Why do you not produce the OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE that confirms the United States has prosecuted anyone for the sole purpose of defining waterboarding as torture. Produce the evidence where the US has prosecuted anyone for the sole purpose of using this interrogation method.
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I already did, but here it is again:

Waterboarding Used to Be a Crime - washingtonpost.com
In 1983, federal prosecutors charged a Texas sheriff and three of his deputies with violating prisoners' civil rights by forcing confessions. The complaint alleged that the officers conspired to "subject prisoners to a suffocating water torture ordeal in order to coerce confessions. This generally included the placement of a towel over the nose and mouth of the prisoner and the pouring of water in the towel until the prisoner began to move, jerk, or otherwise indicate that he was suffocating and/or drowning."

The four defendants were convicted, and the sheriff was sentenced to 10 years in prison.
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Notice the highlighted text.

Evan Wallach | Waterboarding Used to Be a Crime
The principal proof upon which their torture convictions were based was conduct that we would now call waterboarding.
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Bush Cancels Visit To Switzerland Due To Threat Of Torture Prosecution, Rights Groups Say
(Reuters) - Former U.S. President George W. Bush has cancelled a visit to Switzerland, where he was to address a Jewish charity gala, due to the risk of legal action against him for alleged torture, rights groups said on Saturday.
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Here is the Washington Law Review citing why they believe waterboarding is illegal:

Waterboarding is Illegal - Washington University Law Review
The United States has enacted statutes prohibiting torture and cruel or inhuman treatment. It is these statutes which make waterboarding illegal.[22] The four principal statutes which Congress has adopted to implement the provisions of the foregoing treaties are the Torture Act,[23] the War Crimes Act,[24],and the laws entitled “Prohibition on Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment of Persons Under Custody or Control of the United States Government”[25] and “Additional Prohibition on Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment.”[26] The first two statutes are criminal laws while the latter two statutes extend civil rights to any person in the custody of the United States anywhere in the world.
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There is no doubt that waterboarding is illegal under the plain language of each of these four statutes. When it is practiced in other countries, the State Department characterizes waterboarding as “torture.”[46] Waterboarding inflicts “severe pain and suffering” on its victims, both physically and mentally, and therefore it is torture within the meaning of the Torture Act and the War Crimes Act.[47] It inflicts “serious pain and suffering” upon its victims, and it qualifies as “serious physical abuse,” therefore it is “cruel or inhuman treatment” within the meaning of the War Crimes Act.[48] Finally, American courts have ruled that when prisoners in the United States are subjected to waterboarding, it is a violation of the Fifth, Eighth, and Fourteenth Amendments, and therefore it would be a violation of 42 U.S.C. §§ 2000dd and 2000dd-0 prohibiting cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment.[49]
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(The Washington University Law Review article is really good)
 
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Boo Radley said:
Don't start that nonsense. Waterboarding has always been considered torture, but the US. We can go down that road again, siting all the same sources, where we've prosecuted people, including our own people for waterbaording. You can then pretend this was a different procedure, noting meaningless differences. I can point that out.

It's all rather pointless. It was torture. And no torturing of the language will change that.
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BS. Water boarding is part of POW training. You want to know what torture is? Watch someone get their head chopped off on the internet.
 
Ockham said:
Actually, I'm looking for another example comparable to the DOMA situation. A President declares a voted on, signed bill which is currently law, unconstitutional and then refuses to defend that law.
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You keep repeating the same tired stuff that has been refuted repeatedly in this thread. read the full text of Holder's comments. Read the other articles linked here. Just repeating the same false, refuted stuff again and again does not, and will not make it true.

Hint: if Obama was declaring the law unconstitutional, why is it still the law of the land?
 
Moderator's Warning:
Thread is not about torture guys, take that discussion elsewhere.
 
Redress said:
You keep repeating the same tired stuff that has been refuted repeatedly in this thread. read the full text of Holder's comments. Read the other articles linked here. Just repeating the same false, refuted stuff again and again does not, and will not make it true.

Hint: if Obama was declaring the law unconstitutional, why is it still the law of the land?
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Wouldn't it be comparable to not enforcing blue laws? In that the law still exists but it just is not enforced.
 
whysoserious said:
Wouldn't it be comparable to not enforcing blue laws? In that the law still exists but it just is not enforced.
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Nothing like that actually since the law is in fact still enforced. Holder made mention of this in his statements.
 
Ockham said:
Actually, I'm looking for another example comparable to the DOMA situation. A President declares a voted on, signed bill which is currently law, unconstitutional and then refuses to defend that law.
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Presidents give their opinion on laws all the time and it's not a "refusal to defend" it's a "I have no argument with which to defend this law." You've been shown this repeatedly. At this point I start to wonder if you're deliberately dodging this.
 
Imagine if a President Palin decided that the Federal Government would no longer uphold Roe vs Wade...

*props to Newt for that idea.
 
MrVicchio said:
Imagine if a President Palin decided that the Federal Government would no longer uphold Roe vs Wade...

*props to Newt for that idea.
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No one is not upholding DOMA. Good lord people, read the thread, this has been addressed with multiple sources repeatedly, including the press release from the AG office which explicitly mentions that DOMA is still valid and the law of the land and will be enforced.

Newt was either lying or poorly informed as you could have found out with about 30 seconds of research.
 
MrVicchio said:
Morality is the foundation of pretty much every law. What a silly statement.
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Not necessarily, though largely true. Many laws are on the books that legislate morality.
 
MrVicchio said:
Because it's the law... or does that part elude you? What if a Governor said "We're no longer going to enforce speed limits".
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Yea, like some did during the national 55mph thing in the '70s. Then everybody was driving 65 to 70 once instructions were given no to enforce, verbally that is. I guess that made it OK.
 
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