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Thread: Indiana Democrats flee state legislature to avoid anti-union vote

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    Re: Indiana Democrats flee state legislature to avoid anti-union vote

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Well, here is the problem I have with changing public pensions, and making them retroactive to employees who were hired with a condition being the public pension that they were offered. It is breaking the hiring agreement, which under the law is a tort. The government can actually be sued for breaking an existing hiring agreement although, for new employees, it would be considered fair, since it would be part of a new hiring agreement. I have no problem with changes in the way public pensions are administered, but it cannot apply to those already hired under the old pension plan who, under the law, accepted their positions with the assumption what was offered when they were hired. Had they been offered the new pension plan when they were being offered a job, then would they have turned down the job offer, and taken a position in the private sector instead? And that, in a nutshell, is a major problem, both legally and ethically.
    I look at it like this. When you start a business, the idea isn't to go bankrupt. The millions you intended to make are not guaranteed to you.

    If your state is broke, and it's LARGELY because of these pension programs and compensation scales, then you've got to shift gears. Everyone benefitting has skin in the game, and employees aren't exempt from that.

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    Re: Indiana Democrats flee state legislature to avoid anti-union vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    I look at it like this. When you start a business, the idea isn't to go bankrupt. The millions you intended to make are not guaranteed to you.

    If your state is broke, and it's LARGELY because of these pension programs and compensation scales, then you've got to shift gears. Everyone benefitting has skin in the game, and employees aren't exempt from that.
    They are if they were hired under a hiring agreement that includes the pension that was part of their hiring agreement. A hiring agreement is essentially a contract, and if a government breaks a hiring agreement, it can be sued just like any other entity can be sued for doing the same. If the pensions are changed, there is no problem as long as it applies ONLY to new hires. Otherwise, the government will lose big in court.
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    Re: Indiana Democrats flee state legislature to avoid anti-union vote

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    They are if they were hired under a hiring agreement that includes the pension that was part of their hiring agreement. A hiring agreement is essentially a contract, and if a government breaks a hiring agreement, it can be sued just like any other entity can be sued for doing the same. If the pensions are changed, there is no problem as long as it applies ONLY to new hires. Otherwise, the government will lose big in court.
    Contracts are worthless if the money's gone.

    Besides, Walker isn't going to take away anyone's pension here. He's just saying that if they want it, they'll have to contribute more in the future. And, he wants to convert Wisconsin into a right-to-work state, hoping they'll be able to duplicate the success of so many of the nation's other right-to-work states.

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    Re: Indiana Democrats flee state legislature to avoid anti-union vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    Contracts are worthless if the money's gone.

    Besides, Walker isn't going to take away anyone's pension here. He's just saying that if they want it, they'll have to contribute more in the future. And, he wants to convert Wisconsin into a right-to-work state, hoping they'll be able to duplicate the success of so many of the nation's other right-to-work states.
    Whatever he does, he must do it legally. If he changes the hiring agreement for existing employees, he will be sued in court, and he will lose. Again, whatever difficulty Wisconsin is in does not supersede a valid and legal contract.
    Last edited by danarhea; 02-24-11 at 12:04 PM.
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    Re: Indiana Democrats flee state legislature to avoid anti-union vote

    This is a good example of why collective bargaining for public unions fails. Half the people who the unions are bargaining with in the legislatures are bought off with political capital. This is what isolates the public unions from their real bosses the tax payer. This is basically incest.

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    Re: Indiana Democrats flee state legislature to avoid anti-union vote

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Hmm. I have a question here. If someone works all his life, he doesn't deserve a pension, if the pension comes from the public sector? The way I see it, he deserves a pension if he has worked in either the public or private sector.
    The way I see it... government should be out of the pension business and benefits business. Pay the people and let them be responsible for themselves. Those pension funds have no money... so why let government waste it?

    Is anyone in the forum hoping they get their government pension? Think this will be abnormal in the future? Think again.
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    Re: Indiana Democrats flee state legislature to avoid anti-union vote

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Whatever he does, he must do it legally. If he changes the hiring agreement for existing employees, he will be sued in court, and he will lose. Again, whatever difficulty Wisconsin is in does not supersede a valid and legal contract.
    No, the taxpayers in Wisconsin will be sued, and you'll have a civil war on your hands.

    They can sue all they want. Nothing minus nothing equals nonthing. Wisconsin will have to borrow from China because right to work states won't offer, and union states don't have it to loan. LOL

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    Re: Indiana Democrats flee state legislature to avoid anti-union vote

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Whatever he does, he must do it legally. If he changes the hiring agreement for existing employees, he will be sued in court, and he will lose. Again, whatever difficulty Wisconsin is in does not supersede a valid and legal contract.
    You are absolutely right. Cuts to wages and perks must be agreed to by the union, or they simply aren't valid. If the bill the governor is pushing does that without union agreement, it will be invalidated on appeal. That's one of the problems with huge, multi-year union contracts. They can't be renegotiateed when the economic situation changes and the money runs out. When I was on our management negotiating team, there was never an instance where the union would ever agree to concessions. They simply wanted us to terminate employees... and again, per the union contract, we didn't even have the choice of which employees to terminate. Excellent employees would frequently be terminated because they were newer than mediocre or even poor employees.

    It's one of the reasons I think unions per se in the public sector are so onerous. Those appropriating taxpayer money are hamstringed on how they can do it.

    I haven't read Walker's bill. Does it contain language that will inevitably be overturned in court? If so, he's an utter jackass whose using a legitimate issue, bullying tactics of public sector unions, and doing something that will in the end make those unions even more powerful.

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    Re: Indiana Democrats flee state legislature to avoid anti-union vote

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    They are if they were hired under a hiring agreement that includes the pension that was part of their hiring agreement. A hiring agreement is essentially a contract, and if a government breaks a hiring agreement, it can be sued just like any other entity can be sued for doing the same. If the pensions are changed, there is no problem as long as it applies ONLY to new hires. Otherwise, the government will lose big in court.
    What the heck are you talking about? A lot of things change over the time someone starts with a company including the benefit package. There is a good arguement for those already retired, but for those working, just like pay raises or new benefits you may get over time, other benefits go down. Not sure where you have worked or for how long, but benefits do change. Not worth debating just stating a fact.

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    Re: Indiana Democrats flee state legislature to avoid anti-union vote

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    I wonder if we are going to see more of this with redistricting later this year in Republican-controlled states?
    That's why the Texas Dems ran away from home a few years ago, so it wouldn't surprise me.
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