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Thread: BREAKING NEWS: 4 Americans Abducted by Somali Pirates Have Been Killed

  1. #311
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    Re: BREAKING NEWS: 4 Americans Abducted by Somali Pirates Have Been Killed

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    The country is a failure and needs to be invaded and occupied by an international force until it become a stable democracy. Problem is. Only the US is willing to spill blood and were tired of fighting the international communities wars.
    Why does no one not learn from history. I give up.

    Democracy cannot be forced on Somalia for the last time. Somaliland did not find democracy (the only democracy in HOA) by a invasion. Puntland did not find peace through invasion. Neither will Somalia.
    Invasion is the LAST thing anyone should think about doing with Somalia. The last time a invasion happened in Somalia with the Ethiopians it gave birth to African Al Qaeda!

    Leave Somalia to Somalis and it's neighbors. Somaliland has been shirking it's duty to it's people and it should step up.

    US is still funding TFG and popping up an unwanted "Government". How about stop that?
    Last edited by Laila; 02-24-11 at 04:54 PM.


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    Re: BREAKING NEWS: 4 Americans Abducted by Somali Pirates Have Been Killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Democracy cannot be forced on Somalia for the last time. Somaliland did not find democracy (the only democracy in HOA) by a invasion. Puntland did not find peace through invasion. Neither will Somalia.

    Leave Somalia to Somalis and it's neighbors. Somaliland has been shirking it's duty to it's people and it should step up.

    US is still funding TFG and popping up an unwanted "Government". How about stop that?
    Hi Laila, could you explain your comments for those of us not fully up-to-date with the situation in the HOA? I have a few questions from your post:
    • Puntland? I've never heard this name before. Which part of Somalia is this?
    • In what way has Somaliland (that's the northern-most provinces, no?) been shirking its duty?
    • TFG? What does that stand for and why have the US been funding it?

    Thanks!
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    Re: BREAKING NEWS: 4 Americans Abducted by Somali Pirates Have Been Killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Why does no one not learn from history. I give up.

    Democracy cannot be forced on Somalia for the last time. Somaliland did not find democracy (the only democracy in HOA) by a invasion. Puntland did not find peace through invasion. Neither will Somalia.
    Invasion is the LAST thing anyone should think about doing with Somalia. The last time a invasion happened in Somalia with the Ethiopians it gave birth to African Al Qaeda!

    Leave Somalia to Somalis and it's neighbors. Somaliland has been shirking it's duty to it's people and it should step up.

    US is still funding TFG and popping up an unwanted "Government". How about stop that?


    How about we put a few destroyers off the coast and kill any somali pirate who enters waters beyond the 12 mile coast?


    Piracy is not the answer, especially when it ends in murder.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: BREAKING NEWS: 4 Americans Abducted by Somali Pirates Have Been Killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    I cannot believe I missed this gem.
    Oh hell to the ****ing no are you trying to imply US has had no hand in Somalia prior to Bush and Clinton.
    Are you kidding me? You must be a representation of an average American with absolutely no knowledge of your countries own history in other countries.
    Somalia was, in fact, viewed as a strategic Cold War asset, first for the Soviets who abandoned Somalia for Ethiopia, and then for the U.S.

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    Re: BREAKING NEWS: 4 Americans Abducted by Somali Pirates Have Been Killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    TFG? What does that stand for and why have the US been funding it?
    TFG = "Transitional Federal Government"

    In reality, the TFG is little more than a fiction. It is not viewed as legitimate by Somalia's population. It lacks capacity to exercise jurisdiction. The former country is, in practice, without a functioning central government.
    Last edited by donsutherland1; 02-24-11 at 05:18 PM.

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    Re: BREAKING NEWS: 4 Americans Abducted by Somali Pirates Have Been Killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    I cannot believe I missed this gem.
    Oh hell to the ****ing no are you trying to imply US has had no hand in Somalia prior to Bush and Clinton.
    Are you kidding me? You must be a representation of an average American with absolutely no knowledge of your countries own history in other countries.

    HISTORY 101: SOMALIA
    Gather round people and you may just learn something new today.

    Pre Colonialism:

    Long story short: Somalis had no borders. We dominated EA and we were established as a trading region and we had our own rule of law and qabils (clans)
    Colonalism:

    Britain, French and Italian all eventually played a role in HOA. It was the French who first established a colony in Somalia in the 1860’s. The British wished to protect their trade and so the French and British had an agreement and decided to share a piece of the land (The North region)

    Italy got involved in 89 and established it’s colony down South and expanded and included areas in now Kenya and Ethiopia.

    So now we have:
    Djibouti = French Somalia
    Somaliland = British Somalia
    Somalia = Italian Somalia

    Long story short: Many Qaabils fought back against imperialism but the land was divided between the three European powers. The British left Somaliland alone. Italy screwed about with Somalia and the French .... well, they are still there so not much has changed

    During WW2. Italy used Somali soldiers in the South to try and invade British Somalia to get control of the ports and got repealed by the Somalis in the British Army and went on to take the land from Italy until the 50’s when it became a protectorate of Italy.

    Independence:

    British gave Somaliland it’s independence first as a reward and partly because of the de-colonisation Britain was going under anyway. Italian Somalia got their independence.
    Somaliland and Somalia became united under the banner of Greater Somalia.

    So far so good? Yes.

    Due to colonialation and the border drawing which ran contrary to Somali historical land. Hostilities flared between Somalia and Ethiopia until peace was restored.
    1969 President was assassinated. (God rest his soul, I do wonder where Somalia would be if he hadn’t been killed. Sigh)

    The death of the President left General Siad Barre in power to fill the vacuum and he promptly dissolved the national assembly/banned all parties.

    US supported Ethiopia so Somalia hosted Soviet Union and was strong allies. Even allowing it bases in Somalia to counteract US bases

    Until one of the war of Ogaden where US funded Somalia and Soviet Union sided with Ethiopia and the war continued till there was a peace accord in 88 US/Barre had an alliance.
    It funded hundreds of millions worth of arms to Somalia for the right to use the military facilities which the Soviets actually build.

    Somalia’s strategic position meant these bases were used to support US intervention and interests in Middle East.

    US looked the other way to what Siad Barre was doing to his people which included massive human rights violations as it was deemed unimportant to US as it had the bases and an “ally” in the Horn and continued flooding Somalia with weapons.
    During the decade of support the United States and Italy gave to Barre. Tens of thousands of civilians were massacred at the hands of Barre's Army until the civil war erupted in 1978

    Those in the region of what was formally known as British Somaliland and it’s clan leaders declared independence from Italian Somalia to escape the General’s oppression

    To keep a hold Siad Barre used the weapons US gave to him to try and wipe out the qabils in the North by carpet bombing it and when the SNM (Somali National Movement = Part of British Somaliland) won and declared independence.

    The General tried to divert attention from his failings by using the historical divisions between Somalis and played different Somali clans against each other which led to the chaos which triggered the intervention by the United States in 1992.

    US came to “give” humanitarian assistance. But was seen by many as the primary reason why the General who killed so many of his own people stayed in power for so long.

    Andd well, we all know what happened next. Black Hawk Down

    The billions of dollars US funded to Somalia and arms fell into the hands of militia’s who divided themselves according to territory.

    And from the militia’s death came the warlords which the US has been funding, who ironically were the same people who were killing US soldiers during the intervention
    The warlords kept control of certain areas of the South until they too were overthrown by the people.

    And so we come to the birth of the Islamic Union Courts in 2006.

    The IUC with the support of the local people overthrew the US backed warlords who were as evil as the former Dictator but they were funded to try and fight the Islamists. They lost and the ISC came to power.

    They quickly established law over the land. They implemented a slightly harsh Sharia law. But it did the impossible and Somalia had law and it had order for the first time since 1991. They banned guns and the drug khat which was a favourite amongst the Men

    The IUC were dominated by moderates who prevented things like stoning but allowed Sharia and were in no way in league with Al Qaeda. The IUC was portrayed as Extreme Islamists who would become a haven for Al Qaeda which was completely false.

    Somalia had law. It had peace and it was on it’s way to recovery.

    US did not like the idea of Islamists (no matter how moderate) having a foothold in Horn of Africa and Bush with his paranoid, disgusting self added Somalia into the “war on terror and funded Ethiopia to invade Somalia and did airstrikes in Somalia. The invasion into Somalia was not greeted well. Especially as Somalia and Ethiopia have had a horrible history filled with distrust.
    Somalia had turned from qabils against each other. To a wider context by including it in the war on terror.

    US was seen as funding Christian Ethiopia against Muslim Somalia (and yes, I mentioned the religions because it did matter and play a role - this was around the time where US had also invaded two other Muslim countries in the ME and Bush was seen as just targeting Muslims)

    The inevitable insurgency occurred. IUC was weakened fatally and from it’s ashes came Al Shabab. Al Qaeda’s ideological cousins.

    It fought and with widespread support, repealed in 08/9 the foreigners from Somalia and now Al Shabab controls much of the South and has expressed support and admiration for Al Qaeda. Now Al Qaeda does have a foothold in Horn of Africa.
    Al Shabab has bombed it's neighbors who are funding AU troops. Threatens to attack Uganda and Ethiopia and the North. Puntland and Somaliland.
    It has also welcomed Non African fighters to Somalia. Mainly those from Pakistan and Middle East.


    Disclaimer:
    I have missed much out. Seriously
    This is tailored towards US history in Somalia but if you do complain, I am more than happy to expand the above text to include colonial and Muslim intervention
    So i was right then.

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    Re: BREAKING NEWS: 4 Americans Abducted by Somali Pirates Have Been Killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    Is this a personal anecdote? It seems unlikely.
    It's a personal anecdote from PeteEU and he describes what he was taught in the English schools.

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    Re: BREAKING NEWS: 4 Americans Abducted by Somali Pirates Have Been Killed

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    TFG = "Transitional Federal Government"

    In reality, the TFG is little more than a fiction. It is not viewed as legitimate by Somalia's population. It lacks capacity to exercise jurisdiction. The former country is, in practice, without a functioning central government.
    Thanks for the heads up. And has the US been funding this? And if so, why, if it is 'little more than a fiction'? Please don't think I'm making a point here. I genuinely do not know the answers to these questions. I know next to nothing about this issue.
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    Re: BREAKING NEWS: 4 Americans Abducted by Somali Pirates Have Been Killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Thanks for the heads up. And has the US been funding this? And if so, why, if it is 'little more than a fiction'? Please don't think I'm making a point here. I genuinely do not know the answers to these questions. I know next to nothing about this issue.
    The TFG was established in Djibouti and later relocated to Somalia with the expectation that it would lead to a permanent national government. It was not elected by Somalia's people. Its composition does not fully represent the country's peoples and, not surprisingly, lacks popular support. It has little ability to exercise jurisdiction. It may be surviving mainly because the UN, African Union, and U.S. have been assisting it. Without such support, it is questionable whether it would survive, especially as it has yet to gain broad-based public support.

    I used the term "fiction" to note that although there is a claim of a central government, that claim is little more than rhetoric. The absence of a public mandate, lack of jurisdictional capacity, and external origins of the entity are all serious defects. In practice, there remains no functioning central government in Somalia and the barriers toward overcoming that situation remain very formidable (regional bodies, autonomous regions, clan rivalries, etc.).
    Last edited by donsutherland1; 02-24-11 at 06:05 PM.

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    Re: BREAKING NEWS: 4 Americans Abducted by Somali Pirates Have Been Killed

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    The TFG was established in Djibouti and later relocated to Somalia with the expectation that it would lead to a permanent national government. It was not elected by Somalia's people. Its composition does not fully represent the country's peoples and, not surprisingly, lacks popular support. It has little ability to exercise jurisdiction. It may be surviving mainly because the UN, African Union, and U.S. have been assisting it. Without such support, it is questionable whether it would survive, especially as it has yet to gain broad-based public support.

    I used the term "fiction" to note that although there is a claim of a central government, that claim is little more than rhetoric. The absence of a public mandate, lack of jurisdictional capacity, and external origins of the entity are all serious defects. In practice, there remains no functioning central government in Somalia and the barriers toward overcoming that situation remain very formidable (regional bodies, autonomous regions, clan rivalries, etc.).
    Okay, many thanks. That's helpful. When was this TNG established, and when relocated to Somalia?

    Perhaps there comes a time when a 'country' can no longer maintain its claim to integrity and just has to disintegrate. I think I read some Economist articles in which Somaliland could maintain some degree of cohesion and was pushing for divorce from the more Islamic, Al-Shabaab-controlled south. Djibouti, Eritrea and now southern Sudan have all recognised the dis-integrity of their former nations and have set that aside and moved on. Isn't it likely that Somaliland and Somalia separate with the former pursuing liberal democracy and the latter an Islamic republic?
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

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