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Gaddafi flees Tripoli as protesters set the Libyan parliament building alight

ReverendHellh0und

ReverendHellh0und

I don't respect you.
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On the run: Gaddafi flees Tripoli as protesters set the Libyan parliament building alight
Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi is believed to have fled the capital Tripoli after anti-government demonstrators breached the state television building and set government property alight.

Protesters appear to have gained a foothold in Tripoli as banks and government buildings were looted while demonstrators have claimed they have taken control of the second city Benghazi.

Read more: Libya protests: Gaddafi flees Tripoli as parliament building set alight | Mail Online
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Holy crap, the Mideast is having a domino effect....

I'm thinking though by the end of all this, the devil we knew might have been the safer bet.....
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
Holy crap, the Mideast is having a domino effect....

I'm thinking though by the end of all this, the devil we knew might have been the safer bet.....
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This is going to end with a massive war between Islam and everybody else.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
Holy crap, the Mideast is having a domino effect....

I'm thinking though by the end of all this, the devil we knew might have been the safer bet.....
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The devil is ALWAYS a poor choice.

The USA has to live in a world where others have the same choices that the people of our own nation have. To pretend that we support the rights of the people to have their own government but then advocate that its something we cannot live with because a government may not be of our liking, is hypocritical. I would hope that we all can support for others the same powers that we enjoy right here as Americans.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
Holy crap, the Mideast is having a domino effect....

I'm thinking though by the end of all this, the devil we knew might have been the safer bet.....
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Yep, you're right, but the one place I'm hoping to see "domino" is Iran. How worse could it get there?

Wouldn't it be ironic if, after all this, Iran is our closest, most westernized ally? The people in Iran are probably most like us.
 
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ReverendHellh0und said:
Holy crap, the Mideast is having a domino effect....

I'm thinking though by the end of all this, the devil we knew might have been the safer bet.....
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We have a nice cube for him at Gitmo.
 
haymarket said:
The devil is ALWAYS a poor choice.

The USA has to live in a world where others have the same choices that the people of our own nation have. To pretend that we support the rights of the people to have their own government but then advocate that its something we cannot live with because a government may not be of our liking, is hypocritical. I would hope that we all can support for others the same powers that we enjoy right here as Americans.
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Fine, except you could be seeing the beginning of WWIII. What happens when all these nations gang up on Israel?
 
haymarket said:
The devil is ALWAYS a poor choice.

The USA has to live in a world where others have the same choices that the people of our own nation have. To pretend that we support the rights of the people to have their own government but then advocate that its something we cannot live with because a government may not be of our liking, is hypocritical. I would hope that we all can support for others the same powers that we enjoy right here as Americans.
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The same freedoms? I think it's premature to judge the outcome of these revolts as leading to the "same freedoms" we have... Tunsania where this all started has the best shot. The rest of these, this new freedom may just be an islamic sharia republic. the opposite of "freedom".
 
haymarket said:
The devil is ALWAYS a poor choice.

The USA has to live in a world where others have the same choices that the people of our own nation have. To pretend that we support the rights of the people to have their own government but then advocate that its something we cannot live with because a government may not be of our liking, is hypocritical. I would hope that we all can support for others the same powers that we enjoy right here as Americans.
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We also have a right to live in a world where we have a right to protect ourselves and expect other nations to live by the same stanard that is expected of us and to expect our response to any agression to swift and deadly. It's hypocrisy to suggest that we have to live by these rules, then excuse other countries, because they don't know any better.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
The same freedoms? I think it's premature to judge the outcome of these revolts as leading to the "same freedoms" we have... Tunsania where this all started has the best shot. The rest of these, this new freedom may just be an islamic sharia republic. the opposite of "freedom".
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That is a valid point.

Allow me to clarify - if we feel that our own people have the right of self determination and have the right to their own government of our own choosing - then we must also respect the rights of others all over the world to do the same.
 
apdst said:
We also have a right to live in a world where we have a right to protect ourselves and expect other nations to live by the same stanard that is expected of us and to expect our response to any agression to swift and deadly. It's hypocrisy to suggest that we have to live by these rules, then excuse other countries, because they don't know any better.
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"because they don't know any better"
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!!!!!

talk about old an fashioned paternalistic nearly colonial mentality. That seems to personify it.
 
It certainly could go either way and for those that think new governments will be pro-Democracy in the sense we in the West understand it, is a bit naive. These countries may go through many such revolts and the turmoil may be years or even decades in some cases while those darker forces try to seize power and control from the people. The common mistake here is thinking that Libya or Morocco or Iran or Bharain will look like the War of Independence in the U.S.
 
haymarket said:
That is a valid point.

Allow me to clarify - if we feel that our own people have the right of self determination and have the right to their own government of our own choosing - then we must also respect the rights of others all over the world to do the same.
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It's not self determination, when the mob dictates to all of the people, how much freedom they can enjoy. We are a representative republic, for the very reason of avoiding mob rule. I don't think comparing the revolts in the ME to "self determination" is quite accurate here.
 
apdst said:
This is going to end with a massive war between Islam and everybody else.
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I don't expect any such war anytime soon. The underlying factors leading to the unrest in Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, Bahrain, Iraq, etc., have their own domestic peculiarities. These are not simple Iran-style Islamic revolutions.
 
donsutherland1 said:
I don't expect any such war anytime soon. The underlying factors leading to the unrest in Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, Bahrain, Iraq, etc., have their own domestic peculiarities. These are not simple Iran-style Islamic revolutions.
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The religious nutjobs will take advantage of the initial chaos to install themselves as the dominant power in these new governments. We've seen it happen too many times, already. There's no reason to think that anything has changed.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
It's not self determination, when the mob dictates to all of the people, how much freedom they can enjoy. We are a representative republic, for the very reason of avoiding mob rule. I don't think comparing the revolts in the ME to "self determination" is quite accurate here.
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Especially when you look at the "revolutionairies" in the streets. It seems that 95 percent of the crowd is made up of 20-year-old men. You get the sense that the common citizenry fears these people in general.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
It's not self determination, when the mob dictates to all of the people, how much freedom they can enjoy. We are a representative republic, for the very reason of avoiding mob rule. I don't think comparing the revolts in the ME to "self determination" is quite accurate here.
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Ah -- the old tyranny of the majority argument. I agree. It can be a bitch to be in the minority when the majority doesn't respect your rights, and since the societies in question have no track record of pluralism, I think a wait and see attitude is called for.

You are sounding down right liberal here, Rev.
 
Gardener said:
Ah -- the old tyranny of the majority argument. I agree. It can be a bitch to be in the minority when the majority doesn't respect your rights, and since the societies in question have no track record of pluralism, I think a wait and see attitude is called for.

You are sounding down right liberal here, Rev.
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Or pragmatic. :shrug:


I lived in the ME, I understand some of the nuances there. I am hoping for the best, but am a bit concerned with the entire region blowing up with these revolutions. It seems a bit.... planned?


How this is liberal? I won't bother to ask.
 
I think all of the speculation is a bit premature. Some of these nations may become democracies, but I would wager many are going to look like Somolia for awhile. In-fighting and other chaos may very well keep the region in turmoil for the next few years. Some of these nations may very well see the rise of a more brutal tyrant or regime than before. I never count the chickens before they hatch.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
Or pragmatic. :shrug:


I lived in the ME, I understand some of the nuances there. I am hoping for the best, but am a bit concerned with the entire region blowing up with these revolutions. It seems a bit.... planned?

How this is liberal? I won't bother to ask.
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QFT in bold.

Why hasn't the media - any media - asked this question? Is this "spreading" or was it "orchestrated"?

I have no idea, but no one is asking the question.....except the good Reverend.
 
Gardener said:
Ah -- the old tyranny of the majority argument. I agree. It can be a bitch to be in the minority when the majority doesn't respect your rights, and since the societies in question have no track record of pluralism, I think a wait and see attitude is called for.

You are sounding down right liberal here, Rev.
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What majority? I've yet to see a, "majority", in any of these uprisings.
 
If democracy does spread througout the ME in a good way.....


Will the Democrats and liberals acknowledge and give credit to bush for his policies of spreading democracy in the ME? :ssst:
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
If democracy does spread througout the ME in a good way.....


Will the Democrats and liberals acknowledge and give credit to bush for his policies of spreading democracy in the ME? :ssst:
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You know that **** ain't gonna happen! :rofl
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
It's not self determination, when the mob dictates to all of the people, how much freedom they can enjoy. We are a representative republic, for the very reason of avoiding mob rule. I don't think comparing the revolts in the ME to "self determination" is quite accurate here.
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Our methods are not the worlds methods. The way we express our self determination may not be how other nations express their self determination. The sooner we realize that we are not writing the rule book and others are not playing by it, the better off we will be in understanding the rest of the world.

Even in the USA, a minority of people elect the president every four years. People in other nations could use that as evidence that our system is flawed and not what it professes to be.
 
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