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Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

Also, since apparently it was ignored, I counter your claims of lessened gun control causing lower crime rates with my own information, which is a bit more recent than yours.

TheBook said:
Something to note, the NRA named 10 states as lacking a "right to carry" law. This is a list from the most recent FBI crime database, with those 10 stats highlighted.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/69967-violent-crime-states.html

The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence made a list of states with what they call lax gun control laws.

Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence : Media

This group is also pretty well spread out across the violent crime list.
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Do you really see an across the board correlation here?
 
Le Marteau said:
Er, I think this is the first post I've ever even farcically joked that you gun-toting hicks have greater freedom than us.
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TurtleDude said:
eunuchs always pretend they have freedom and want to "share" their liberation with others
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Moderator's Warning:
Both of you knock it off or you will receive further consequences.
 
Le Marteau said:
Ah! Well, I guess the jig is up -- I'll just leave now, you having shown me the error of my ways. I shoulda seen it coming -- freedom! That's the thing I don't get! Yeah! Well, ****e, I wish someday I'll be able to understand this glorious thing you call freedom. Thank you for enlightening me Mr American man!
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Are you still here? :lol:
 
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TheBook said:
Turtle. Calm down.
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I don't think you know me well enough to say that

and quoting the brady thugs sort of brands you as ignorant on the topic. the brady thugs are well known as being dishonest.
 
Jerry said:
Allowing firearms on campus can only be a good thing.

EDITORIAL: Guns decrease murder rates



Harvard Study: Gun Control Is Counterproductive



Concealed carry in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Criminals generally want easy targets. Having a gun makes you a harder target. When you're in a population which carries, you are safer even if you don't carry a gun yourself, because a criminal has no way of knowing if you're carrying concealed or not and doesn't want to risk finding out the hard way.


Pistol: In common use at the time? Yes. Is dangerous and unusual? No.
Rifle: In common use at the time? Yes. Is dangerous and unusual? No.
Automatic rifle: In common use at the time? Yes. Is dangerous and unusual? No.
Grenade launcher: In common use at the time? Yes. Is dangerous and unusual? Yes.
Patriot missile battery: In common use at the time? No. Is dangerous and unusual? Yes.
Nuclear warheads: In common use at the time? No. Is dangerous and unusual? Yes.

Tanks are not weapons. Tanks are vehicles weapons can be mounted in, but anyone with enough money to buy one can own one. That doesn't mean you can have a functioning cannon, 50cal machine gun, 2 saw machine guns, or grenades...it means you can ave the tank and the tank only.

You can own a black hawk helicopter, also...doesn't mean you can have the twin mini-guns.

***
We're talking about citizens 21 years of age and older, who also have a CCW, carrying a pistol on campus.
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Because all college students are so mentally stable... especially on Friday nights at kegger parities.

This is stupid beyond stupid.

Go Texas!!
 
hazlnut said:
Because all college students are so mentally stable... especially on Friday nights at kegger parities.

This is stupid beyond stupid.

Go Texas!!
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I dunno, most of them who make it through college, seem to be quite stable. take out the taboo of guns and it becomes a non issue..... I'd be more concerned with a middle aged adult male living in LA who is afraid of guns and never held one, with one, than say a 12 year old who has been around guns and hunting since he was three...




As to the topic.

I will post this again....


On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman


I suggest everyone read it.


Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always,even death itself. The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth living for? - William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me:

"Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.

I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful.? For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf."

If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed

Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools.

But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa."

Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.
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Read the rest of it. it explains many of our positions well.
 
Jerry said:
I already understand that people feel that guns are a hazard. What I haven't seen is evidence rationalizing this fear.

I appreciate the article you linked to, it seems to represent each side's argument fairly. Though, it seems that you posted it as evidence, which it's not. If that wasn't your intention, that's just fine, as I said it was a fine article on it's own account.

I'm hopping to understand this fear of guns in bars by reviewing the evidence backing up that argument. If you ever find any, please share it here.
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I support right to carry laws but, I think allowing guns in bars isn't such a good idea since alcohol is a factor in a large percentage of shootings. Drinking and guns are not a good combination. It just doesn't seem right in my opinion.
 
USA_1 said:
I support right to carry laws but, I think allowing guns in bars isn't such a good idea since alcohol is a factor in a large percentage of shootings. Drinking and guns are not a good combination. It just doesn't seem right in my opinion.
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You do know, for example, in AZ, and other states where it is permitted, the consumption of alcohol and carrying is illegal right?
 
hazlnut said:
Because all college students are so mentally stable... especially on Friday nights at kegger parities.

This is stupid beyond stupid.

Go Texas!!
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Did you have a sourced argument to bring, or was your vague anecdote it all you have?
 
USA_1 said:
I support right to carry laws but, I think allowing guns in bars isn't such a good idea since alcohol is a factor in a large percentage of shootings. Drinking and guns are not a good combination. It just doesn't seem right in my opinion.
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If I understand you correctly, you're saying that noone should be allowed to carry into Chicky-Cheese, Chillies or Applebees because there will be drunken gun fights, correct?
 
USA_1 said:
I support right to carry laws but, I think allowing guns in bars isn't such a good idea since alcohol is a factor in a large percentage of shootings. Drinking and guns are not a good combination. It just doesn't seem right in my opinion.
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Then people shouldn't be allow to have guns at home. Since you can get in a drunken rage with people at home too.
 
Jerry said:
If I understand you correctly, you're saying that noone should be allowed to carry into Chicky-Cheese, Chillies or Applebees because there will be drunken gun fights, correct?
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No, I am referring to corner bars, neighborhood taverns, nightclubs, meat markets and anywhere folks go to do their binge drinking.
Just wondering, if someone pulled a gun on you in a bar and you pulled yours out and shot him, which one of you would probably go to jail? Or shots ring out in the bar, so you pull out your handgun, how will everyone else in the bar carrying know that you are the good guy?
I think I would stay out of bars that allow handguns on the premises.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15111438/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/
It may seem so, with media attention focused on a spate of school shootings. In fact, school shootings are extremely rare. Even including the more common violence that is gang-related or dispute-related, only 12 to 20 homicides a year occur in the 100,000 schools in the U.S. In general, school assaults and other violence have dropped by nearly half in the past decade.
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cpgrad08 said:
Then people shouldn't be allow to have guns at home. Since you can get in a drunken rage with people at home too.
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This is true.
A minor child (under 18) can both carry a loaded pistol and drink while at home...just not at the same time.
 
USA_1 said:
No, I am referring to corner bars, neighborhood taverns, nightclubs, meat markets and anywhere folks go to do their binge drinking.
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The law makes no distinction between one business which serves alcohol and another.

USA_1 said:
Just wondering, if someone pulled a gun on you in a bar and you pulled yours out and shot him, which one of you would probably go to jail?
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That's highly circumstantial.

USA_1 said:
Or shots ring out in the bar, so you pull out your handgun, how will everyone else in the bar carrying know that you are the good guy?
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I thought about that, actually, because that situation could happen anywhere.

Here was my solution:

jerry-albums-forbidden-love-picture67113491-getattachment-aspx.jpg


jerry-albums-forbidden-love-picture67113490-dapopo.jpg


USA_1 said:
I think I would stay out of bars that allow handguns on the premises.
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I stay out of locations which ban firearms, so I guess we balance each-other out.
 
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ReverendHellh0und said:
You do know, for example, in AZ, and other states where it is permitted, the consumption of alcohol and carrying is illegal right?
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You would think that if someone had a problem with drinking on campus, that they would support carrying on campus, as the laws preventing one from consuming alcohol while armed would deture the drinking.
 
Jerry said:
Then I guess I don't understand your point in saying that guns are not a cure all, as though they need to be, if we agree that cure-alls don't exist.



Ok, but I would, so what evidence do you have that demonstrates why I should not be allowed?
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I'm sure your church would have a problem with you bringina backhoe in the building. So would most. And even though some thing they have the right to do so, we would still bar them from doing so. There is no place in school for a gun, just as there is no place in the pew for a backhoe. And that is true no matter anyone's personal view.

As for a cure all, many seem to think we can solve problems by being armed, while ignoreing the new problems associated with weapons. They are tools like all other tools, no more and no less. Just because someone can own a hammer doesn't mean they know how to use one. Over the years I've seen far too many reason cahlleneged people hurt themselves and others with weapons they simply didn't have the experience and training to use, many having attended mandatory classes (go figure).

The point is, the tool is not for use in schools. And schools hold a population less likely to be responsible.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
You do know, for example, in AZ, and other states where it is permitted, the consumption of alcohol and carrying is illegal right?
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Is that the same Arizona with one of the worst gun-death rates in the U.S. ??

Overall, violent-crime rates in Arizona are not far from rates for the U.S. as a whole, but the rate of deaths specifically tied to guns surprises national experts.

Crime-victimization patterns that measure factors such as age and racial demographics suggest that Arizona would figure to be among the states with a lower risk for violent crime.

"That's much higher than I would expect the state to be," said Franklin Zimring, a law professor at the University of California-Berkeley who studies demographic factors in crime. "The demographic-risk profile should keep Arizona lower. It's higher than expected. Now, the question is: Why?"

Gun violence is facing renewed scrutiny after the Jan. 8 massacre near Tucson that killed six and wounded 13, including U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, D-Ariz., a gun-rights advocate herself.

Arizona, as the cultural symbol of the Old West with a fierce independent streak and strong support for gun rights, is the focus of that interest.


LINK
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For a state that's mostly desert, people seem to get shot all over the place.

New GOP talking point: "At the OK Coral, mostly bad guys got shot... mostly."
 
Boo Radley said:
The point is, the tool is not for use in schools. And schools hold a population less likely to be responsible.
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College all the students are adults. Are you saying it's ok to infringe upon their rights because they are not likely to be responsible with those rights?
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
I dunno, most of them who make it through college, seem to be quite stable. take out the taboo of guns and it becomes a non issue..... I'd be more concerned with a middle aged adult male living in LA who is afraid of guns and never held one, with one, than say a 12 year old who has been around guns and hunting since he was three...


As to the topic.

I will post this again....


On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman


I suggest everyone read it.





Read the rest of it. it explains many of our positions well.
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There two kinds of sheep, those that honor the sheepdog, and those that don't.
 
Boo Radley said:
I'm sure your church would have a problem with you bringina backhoe in the building. So would most. And even though some thing they have the right to do so, we would still bar them from doing so. There is no place in school for a gun, just as there is no place in the pew for a backhoe. And that is true no matter anyone's personal view.
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You might want to pick an analogy which fits the nature of a firearm if you want your argument to be understood. A backhoe doesn't physically fit through the door, a pistol does. Carrying heavy equipment is not a specifically enumerated constitutional right, but to keep and bear is. I understand that you don't think firearms belong in a verity of places, I got that. But I disagree, so now what?

Boo Radley said:
As for a cure all, many seem to think we can solve problems by being armed, while ignoreing the new problems associated with weapons.
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Firearms can and do solve problems, just not every problem or all the time.

True story:
Just a few days ago my brother's X (we're still friends) called me up at 2am asking me to pick her up. She was at her new BF's house and he had been drinking. Apparently he's an ass when he gets his drink on. Jack Daniels tends to bring that out in people. Anyway, when I got there he thought I was competition (believe me, oh hell no I'm not) and came out his door to start ****. She stopped him, insisted that we weren't seeing each other, and not to start a fight because I had a gun.

He stopped, offered us both some colorful adjectives, and stood on his porch describing how he could kick my ass. I didn't react, I just stayed in my car. She got in, we left, that was it.

The mere presence of a gun stopped a fight that night. I didn't even have to show it.

So yes, guns do solve problems, but that doesn't mean anyone is insisting they solve every problem all the time.

Boo Radley said:
They are tools like all other tools, no more and no less. Just because someone can own a hammer doesn't mean they know how to use one. Over the years I've seen far too many reason cahlleneged people hurt themselves and others with weapons they simply didn't have the experience and training to use, many having attended mandatory classes (go figure).
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When on the job, I always bring every tool I own to every site, because I never know. Granted I only own personal tools and not big chop saws, but I only own personal weapons and not machine-guns, either.

Boo Radley said:
The point is, the tool is not for use in schools. And schools hold a population less likely to be responsible.
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Yes, I got that this is your position. What I'm asking you for is evidence.
 
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hazlnut said:
Is that the same Arizona with one of the worst gun-death rates in the U.S. ??



For a state that's mostly desert, people seem to get shot all over the place.

New GOP talking point: "At the OK Coral, mostly bad guys got shot... mostly."
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Look, we already know the kind of people, and many times who, want to disarm the public. No need to for you to come out and tell us who you are.
 
Jerry said:
You might want to pick an analogy which fits the nature of a firearm if you want your argument to be understood. A backhoe doesn't physically fit through the door, a pistol does. Carrying heavy equipment is not a specifically enumerated constitutional right, but to keep and bear is. I understand that you don't think firearms belong in a verity of places, I got that. But I disagree, so now what?
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No, I think it works. Regardless of size, it has a purpose not meant to use at school. And that right has been subject to all kinds of restrictions from the very begining of this country. nothing new in restricting where you can carry it.

Firearms can and do solve problems, just not every problem or all the time.


True story:
Just a few days ago my brother's X (we're still friends) called me up at 2am asking me to pick her up. She was at her new BF's house and he had been drinking. Apparently he's an ass when he gets his drink on. Jack Daniels tends to bring that out in people. Anyway, when I got there he thought I was competition (believe me, oh hell no I'm not) and came out his door to start ****. She stopped him, insisted that we weren't seeing each other, and not to start a fight because I had a gun.

He stopped, offered us both some colorful adjectives, and stood on his porch describing how he could kick my ass. I didn't react, I just stayed in my car. She got in, we left, that was it.

The mere presence of a gun stopped a fight that night. I didn't even have to show it.

So yes, guns do solve problems, but that doesn't mean anyone is insisting they solve every problem all the time.
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You reach a conclusion that may or may not be true. I've dealt with many such people, getting the same result without a gun. You choose to believe it is the gun, but he may have backed down anyway. You have no way of knowing.



When on the job, I always bring every tool I own to every site, because I never know. Granted I only own personal tools and not big chop saws, but I only own personal weapons and not machine-guns, either.
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Do you believe eveyone knows the tools they carry?

Yes, I got that this is your position. What I'm asking you for is evidence.
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What would you consider evidence, as this is always part of the problem with these discussions. What role would people being armed play in the classroom? What puropose would there be for having a number carrying guns? I'm sure many won't, but what would it say about those who do? What does it say about them? Any chance somoene would want to show off? Any chance a young person would beimmature, and armed?

Not sure what you're looking for, but it doesn't take much reasoning to see why this is a bad idea. I can't see many schools supporting this.
 
hazlnut said:
Is that the same Arizona with one of the worst gun-death rates in the U.S. ??



For a state that's mostly desert, people seem to get shot all over the place.

New GOP talking point: "At the OK Coral, mostly bad guys got shot... mostly."
Click to expand...


from your article:


Overall, violent-crime rates in Arizona are not far from rates for the U.S. as a whole, but the rate of deaths specifically tied to guns surprises national experts.
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FAIL


I'm also not a GOP member...


FAILx2
 
Ikari said:
College all the students are adults. Are you saying it's ok to infringe upon their rights because they are not likely to be responsible with those rights?
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The point is, the only point, public safety trumps the 2nd Amendment.

Collage admins must put campus safety above all other concerns. There is no logical, practical, reason or benefit to have handguns on campus.

The GOP and NRA like to read the 2nd Amendment through a keyhole, thinking what works in WI should work in NYC. What works in rural areas DOES NOT work, is NOT PRACTICAL in urban areas.

Even the most conservative of law enforcement agents, criminal prosecutors, judges favor gun control that fits their community.
 
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