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Thread: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

  1. #331
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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Cars are a risk, yes. In fact, the leading cause of death in my age bracket. Are you saying I shouldn't drive because of the "added" risk? The risk already exists, as does the risk of being shot because guns are around. If allowing students to carry weapons increased that risk (it doesn't), then it could be quantified in some way. You could tell me my increased probabilities of death. If allowing guns on campus does not affect that at all (and it doesn't), then there is no reason to restrict it. You haven't actually affected the system in any negative way (and even that has limits as discussed before). You keep saying risk risk risk; but if there is no change to the dynamics of the actual system then it is not a risk. To say it's a risk you have to show some statistically meaningful increases in my overall probability of life or death on any given day.

    People keep freaking out about this, but I have seen no negative side effects from students being allowed to carry weapons on my campus. Given that, I have no real reason to restrict the right. The right persists less you can demonstrate some meaningful negative consequence. And even then, under many circumstances the right still persists over the risks.
    No. I am however sying cars are a needed risk, much like weapons were when this country was first formed. Taking a risk due to need is one thing. Taking it without need is another.

    And no one is freaking out, but are instead trying to articulate how needless this is, and how there is no place for a weapon on campus.

    Understand, if guns become prevelent on cmapus, you may well see those studies and statisitics you ask for. And that would be a shame, as it would mean we paid a cost for this. I believe we don't have to hit the wall with our head to know that hitting our head agianst the wall will hurt. We can make reasonable judgements before we do something needlessly that is risky.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Who was ever talking about "unfettered possession of weapons in schools"?

    We're talking about adults who have a clean criminal history carrying a pistol, discretely. It sounds like are trying to deliberately misrepresent us as if we want to mount machine guns on monster trucks and crash them through the classroom wall.
    Don't misread me Jerry. Ikari and some others got into the discussion involving gun possession in schools, and involving BOTH students and teachers...REMEMBER?. I commented, quite specifically, and with limitation to that reference I stated MY OPINION in that very limited area. Just because you may believe there are absolutely no exceptions to places where the right to keep and bear arms can be restricted doesn't mean my opinion is wrong. There are such limitations existing NOW in law. My entire comment, as you may see by reading it, centers about a discussion of what is or isn't "in the public interest". I can't be any clearer than that.

    So what do you do? You jump on your high horse named Hyperbole tethered to the Very Conservative walk-down cooler and lay this crap on me:
    "It sounds like are trying to deliberately misrepresent us as if we want to mount machine guns on monster trucks and crash them through the classroom wall."
    You do yourself and the debate no good when you exaggerate so. You have posted long and enough to understand that a discussion titled:
    Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus
    is not so limiting as to make my comments off-topic. Please don't repeat this ridiculous pattern with me, I wouldn't do it with you. As I've said before here...I am never obtuse. I state what I believe. Learn to deal with freedom of speech Jerry. My opinion is as valid as yours and both are on-topic conjecture.
    "Ignorance confuses. Knowledge mediates. Truth resolves." (doctorhugo)

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No. I am however sying cars are a needed risk, much like weapons were when this country was first formed. Taking a risk due to need is one thing. Taking it without need is another.

    And no one is freaking out, but are instead trying to articulate how needless this is, and how there is no place for a weapon on campus.

    Understand, if guns become prevelent on cmapus, you may well see those studies and statisitics you ask for. And that would be a shame, as it would mean we paid a cost for this. I believe we don't have to hit the wall with our head to know that hitting our head agianst the wall will hurt. We can make reasonable judgements before we do something needlessly that is risky.
    You know that hitting your head against the wall will hurt because people have previously hit their head against a wall and it hurt. There's data. Cars may be a "necessary" risk, but it's not really all that true. You could invest heavily into public transport and significantly lower some of those probabilities at least while traveling within a city. But we accept it because we like what having cars gets us. So we know that lots of people (more than on 9/11) will die every year because of our large consumption of cars and personal transportation. Guns still have a necessity and a purpose, even today.

    In the end, this is what it comes down to. The individual has the right to keep and bear arms. You want to augment their ability to bear arms. To do so, you must have a valid reason. You saying it is "needless" is not a valid reason to infringe upon a right. You need something more. If this were a privilege, then yes there is a lot more room to restrict without the necessity and burden of proof. However, it is not privilege, it is a right and because it is a right the methods by which you can employ government force against the individual in terms of exercising that right becomes well more restrictive. You now do bear the burden of proof. That has not once been demonstrated. In fact, I've given you real world data that shows the opposite.

    And as for guns becoming prevelent on campus, they won't. Even when you allow students to carry guns on campus, the vast majority of students will not. It's not like everyone is going to be walking around with a beer in one hand and a gun in the other. These are adults we are talking about, and they choose to take on the responsibility of being a gun owner or they do not. In the end, the point remains. If you cannot actually affect the dynamics of the real world system, you do not have proper call to restrict rights.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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  4. #334
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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by doctorhugo View Post
    Don't misread me Jerry. Ikari and some others got into the discussion involving gun possession in schools, and involving BOTH students and teachers...REMEMBER?. I commented, quite specifically, and with limitation to that reference I stated MY OPINION in that very limited area. Just because you may believe there are absolutely no exceptions to places where the right to keep and bear arms can be restricted doesn't mean my opinion is wrong. There are such limitations existing NOW in law. My entire comment, as you may see by reading it, centers about a discussion of what is or isn't "in the public interest". I can't be any clearer than that.

    So what do you do? You jump on your high horse named Hyperbole tethered to the Very Conservative walk-down cooler and lay this crap on me:
    You do yourself and the debate no good when you exaggerate so. You have posted long and enough to understand that a discussion titled:
    is not so limiting as to make my comments off-topic. Please don't repeat this ridiculous pattern with me, I wouldn't do it with you. As I've said before here...I am never obtuse. I state what I believe. Learn to deal with freedom of speech Jerry. My opinion is as valid as yours and both are on-topic conjecture.
    That post didn't clarify your position at all.

  5. #335
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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    You know that hitting your head against the wall will hurt because people have previously hit their head against a wall and it hurt. There's data. Cars may be a "necessary" risk, but it's not really all that true. You could invest heavily into public transport and significantly lower some of those probabilities at least while traveling within a city. But we accept it because we like what having cars gets us. So we know that lots of people (more than on 9/11) will die every year because of our large consumption of cars and personal transportation. Guns still have a necessity and a purpose, even today.

    In the end, this is what it comes down to. The individual has the right to keep and bear arms. You want to augment their ability to bear arms. To do so, you must have a valid reason. You saying it is "needless" is not a valid reason to infringe upon a right. You need something more. If this were a privilege, then yes there is a lot more room to restrict without the necessity and burden of proof. However, it is not privilege, it is a right and because it is a right the methods by which you can employ government force against the individual in terms of exercising that right becomes well more restrictive. You now do bear the burden of proof. That has not once been demonstrated. In fact, I've given you real world data that shows the opposite.

    And as for guns becoming prevelent on campus, they won't. Even when you allow students to carry guns on campus, the vast majority of students will not. It's not like everyone is going to be walking around with a beer in one hand and a gun in the other. These are adults we are talking about, and they choose to take on the responsibility of being a gun owner or they do not. In the end, the point remains. If you cannot actually affect the dynamics of the real world system, you do not have proper call to restrict rights.
    I suspect there is not a wealth of studies on the wisdom of running your head into a wall, and I know we wouldn't need one to know it is a bad idea.

    And cars, regardless of other possible ways of doing it, still meet a real need, there is a real purpose.

    And frankly, I worry more about those who think they need a gun on campus than anyone else. I question the thought process. And the more people who would think this way increases the odds that something will go wrong. it's a bad idea, and there is no reason to have a gun on campus.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  6. #336
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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    I wonder, which is more dangerous, handguns on campus, or movies and video games that desensitize out kids to violence and death. Look at the rates of aggravated assaults... it's not the gun that is the issue, it's people.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  7. #337
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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    I wonder, which is more dangerous, handguns on campus, or movies and video games that desensitize out kids to violence and death. Look at the rates of aggravated assaults... it's not the gun that is the issue, it's people.
    Not sure many of those are on campus, at least not where students just play them without any academic thought put into it.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Not sure many of those are on campus, at least not where students just play them without any academic thought put into it.


    You're right, college kids don't watch tv or play video games.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  9. #339
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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I suspect there is not a wealth of studies on the wisdom of running your head into a wall, and I know we wouldn't need one to know it is a bad idea.

    And cars, regardless of other possible ways of doing it, still meet a real need, there is a real purpose.

    And frankly, I worry more about those who think they need a gun on campus than anyone else. I question the thought process. And the more people who would think this way increases the odds that something will go wrong. it's a bad idea, and there is no reason to have a gun on campus.
    And while you keep saying the same thing over and over again, you have not once offered valid argument for the use of government force against the exercise of an individual's rights.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  10. #340
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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    And while you keep saying the same thing over and over again, you have not once offered valid argument for the use of government force against the exercise of an individual's rights.
    Well, on that we disagree. I think I've laid out a logical argument. I don't believe there is any RIGHT to have guns on campus. There is also no need for one or any purpose for one, and making it a needless risk.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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