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Thread: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    As they say on Wikipedia, "citation needed".
    For factual information, yes. But Wikipedia is not a debate site. It is about posting factual information and not about making an argument or having a debate.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    What you think of them is not the point. They were effective. And I never used the word increased. I said it was an unnecessary risk, one in which there is no purpose or need for.
    An unnecessary risk is a risk which unnecesarily raises risk factors. You did indeed speak of increased risk. Because if a "risk" doesn't increase the risk factors of a system, it's not a risk. By calling it a risk, you are saying my probabilities of death or injury are higher. Not that you can quantify that. But the risk factors associated with allowing students on campus to carry guns will do relatively little to my overall probabilities of death. If you're not actually affecting the system, why support government force against the exercise of a right? It's not logical.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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  3. #323
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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I respect you for a lot of reasons, but I just don't buy all of that. Guns are in and of themselfs a risk. We ahve the numbers of how often people shoot themselves. It's a fair number. Add to a population less likley to make great decisions, and you increase the risk. We don't live in the frontier anymore. The need for the tool is far less than it was when this country was first forming. In fact, most of the reasons for the 2nd amendment no longer exist. So, while I'm against any complete ban on guns, we an still exercise good sense and not have too many folks running around with guns where they are not needed.
    A completely inaccurate statement, guns are in fact an inanimate object. A gun on it's own has never hurt anyone.

    As stated before, we live in a dangerous world today, people seem to be growing more and more violent. Back in my college days we would never have this debate, because no one (that I was aware of) ever felt the need to be carrying a gun on campus.

    Your debate that we shouldn't need or want guns on our campus, is (to me) a very good point. I'm one that surely thinks in the reasonable sense that we shouldn't even have a need for them on campus. Our educational system is a place to learn. Not to be worrying about our well being.

    However, that is just not simply the case any more, parents as well as students are concerned about their welfare, while getting an education. It is also apparent that the police and the colleges are not capable of stemming the rising violence on college campuses

    Is arming the students an answer, I really don't know, My opinion however is such that for those that might be teetering on doing a crime, would think twice about it, if they felt that they would meet armed resistance. At the same time things like what happened at VT would not be stopped, anyone that can kill people then put a gun to his head, is not going to be deterred.

    My personal feeling on this, is that we need to find and work on ways of making our college campuses safe again, where the need to carry a firearm for ones personal safety is no longer needed. Until that happens, if I was a college student in todays world, I would be carrying a firearm. I would in no way shape or form, think it would be right to tell you, or anyone that they must carry one, as it would be a individual choice.

    The law being presented in Texas, is not a must carry law, it's the freedom to do so. In my opinion, those that will arm themselves will be mostly those that are familiar, and comfortable with them. In any case, they will still have background checks done, and anything else required to get a cw permitt

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Never said they did anything on there own. People make the mistake. But you can't make a mistake with something you don't have. It really is simple to follow. I can't wreck a car I'm not driving or in either.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    An unnecessary risk is a risk which unnecesarily raises risk factors. You did indeed speak of increased risk. Because if a "risk" doesn't increase the risk factors of a system, it's not a risk. By calling it a risk, you are saying my probabilities of death or injury are higher. Not that you can quantify that. But the risk factors associated with allowing students on campus to carry guns will do relatively little to my overall probabilities of death. If you're not actually affecting the system, why support government force against the exercise of a right? It's not logical.
    No, that's not true. And while it does raise the risk for you, it likely doesn't effect the numbers significantly enough to register. But, you driving a car may not effect driving satisitics, but it is a risk for you. Something could go wrong. Same with carrying a gun. It is a risk. And it is an unecessary one.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Yes, but you need to demonstrate that public interest. Public interest in and of itself does not override individual rights. There has to be a quantifiable risk to the public at large. Now some of that isn't even true. Allowing guns in society in general means that there will be a certain amount of gun crime. Certainly the aggregated use of guns in this country has led to a non-zero amount of gun crime and thus there is an overall risk to the American populace by allowing guns to be legal. Yet we do not use that public interest to then strip all guns away even though if you could remove enough guns you would start to affect the overall probabilities of gun crime. So there is a limit to what we can do, even in "public interest".
    You've taken leaps and bounds to exaggerate the public interest to pose a threat to removing all guns. You can't go back and rewrite the Second Amendment. Sufficeth to say, as my stated opinion, that I believe that allowing the unfettered possession of weapons in schools because of the Second Amendment right is irresponsible. And that I perceive that irresponsibility based upon an individual's right to keep and bear arms to be a detriment to the overall public interest. I say that not as a "weak sister" Second Amendment supporter, but as a concession to reality with the specific points I made in my earlier posts. I have to demonstrate nothing. I'm not, in this opinion, arguing my case before the Court of Nine and, in this opinion, not even trying to convince anyone to join my view. I'm giving this opinion as my alternate view that wasn't really stated as I've framed it. If your position is that the public interest never enters into the making of "public policy" you couldn't be more wrong. The minutia of legal opinion and detail is for lawyers and jurists to wrangle over.



    However, as related to this debate, there is concern that what is being stripped away is being done so only by thoughts of assumption and supposition, not actual risks. What are the probabilities that any one of us can die on any given day? How is that probability affected by allowing or banning guns on campus? There has to be an effect there if you wish to infringe upon the rights of the individual. I've already stated that on my campus (in general in CO), concealed carry is allowed. There are bars, and young adults, and guns; yet there has been no shootings or anything of the like here. So obviously, just allowing adults to carry concealed, even on University property, does very little to our actual risk factors. If that is the case, then there is no "public interest", there is no legitimate argument by which you can authorize government force against the rights and liberties of the individual.
    Fine. One perfect example why I framed this as my "opinion". If and when I debate an opinion and validate it with source reference you'll know.This argument is not fiot for debate at this satge in my opinion. I do not beieve there are enough reasonably accurate and definable "experience" to formulate a valid right or wrong on. I recognized that up front. Your experience at your particular school may not be typical at all. Is it an inner, big city school? Is it a public university? Is it suburban? Is it rural? Is partying and binge-drinking prevalent? Is drug usage a common occurence? There are so many differing considerations that go to the type of youth at a particular school and your OPINION is limited, very much so, by your experience. I'm going to be 74 and I know what I read about and see on TV and I know one Hell of a lot of crap goes on in American schools as commonplace that was rare twenty or thirty years ago.



    We've already decided to be free, that in and of itself carries with it the greatest amount of risk. Small perturbations above and below that mark are not going to manifest themselves in significant increases/decreases to our overall risk and probabilities of death.
    WHAT!
    An absolutely irresponsibly idyllic and myopic perception unfounded in today's reality. Don't be too pertinacious about those pertubations...seriously. One day you might find yourself at high risk based upon bad judgement and assumptions. That last sentence of this comment makes you sound like a statistician who has decided that she has calculated the risk level in walking across the street just one time blindfolded and with earmuffs on to be 'acceptable'..., so you'll give it a try. Lots of luck kiddo. I'll just watch...thanks!
    "Ignorance confuses. Knowledge mediates. Truth resolves." (doctorhugo)

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Never said they did anything on there own. People make the mistake. But you can't make a mistake with something you don't have. It really is simple to follow. I can't wreck a car I'm not driving or in either.
    Really now. How very enlightening. What do you say about the situation where you run into another car and wreck it? Do you say..."OOPS! I just think I made a mistake with something I didn't have and ruined something somebody else had."
    "Ignorance confuses. Knowledge mediates. Truth resolves." (doctorhugo)

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by doctorhugo View Post
    [SIZE="3"][FONT="Georgia"]You've taken leaps and bounds to exaggerate the public interest to pose a threat to removing all guns. You can't go back and rewrite the Second Amendment. Sufficeth to say, as my stated opinion, that I believe that allowing the unfettered possession of weapons in schools because of the Second Amendment right is irresponsible.
    Who was ever talking about "unfettered possession of weapons in schools"?

    We're talking about adults who have a clean criminal history carrying a pistol, discretely. It sounds like are trying to deliberately misrepresent us as if we want to mount machine guns on monster trucks and crash them through the classroom wall.
    Last edited by Jerry; 03-02-11 at 10:36 PM.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by doctorhugo View Post
    Really now. How very enlightening. What do you say about the situation where you run into another car and wreck it? Do you say..."OOPS! I just think I made a mistake with something I didn't have and ruined something somebody else had."
    You are supporting what I'm saying. Am I misreading you?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No, that's not true. And while it does raise the risk for you, it likely doesn't effect the numbers significantly enough to register. But, you driving a car may not effect driving satisitics, but it is a risk for you. Something could go wrong. Same with carrying a gun. It is a risk. And it is an unecessary one.
    Cars are a risk, yes. In fact, the leading cause of death in my age bracket. Are you saying I shouldn't drive because of the "added" risk? The risk already exists, as does the risk of being shot because guns are around. If allowing students to carry weapons increased that risk (it doesn't), then it could be quantified in some way. You could tell me my increased probabilities of death. If allowing guns on campus does not affect that at all (and it doesn't), then there is no reason to restrict it. You haven't actually affected the system in any negative way (and even that has limits as discussed before). You keep saying risk risk risk; but if there is no change to the dynamics of the actual system then it is not a risk. To say it's a risk you have to show some statistically meaningful increases in my overall probability of life or death on any given day.

    People keep freaking out about this, but I have seen no negative side effects from students being allowed to carry weapons on my campus. Given that, I have no real reason to restrict the right. The right persists less you can demonstrate some meaningful negative consequence. And even then, under many circumstances the right still persists over the risks.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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