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Thread: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by doctorhugo View Post
    I'm a Second Amendment guy too, but I realize there can be legitimate limitations. Those limitations, can be tested in court by constitutional challenge. Public law, in this case, USC 930 Section 18, titled Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities, states:

    Anybody with a carry permit should be aware and familiar with this and realize that although government buildings are the subject of this law there are laws for other "public" areas. One thing must be borne in mind though. If that is so it is "reasonable" to understand that the courts in any Second Amendment challenge to a law restricting or limiting possession of firearms in 'private' buildings/facilities/areas would be inclined to uphold such as in the "public interest", because that interest overrides any individual right.
    Yes, but you need to demonstrate that public interest. Public interest in and of itself does not override individual rights. There has to be a quantifiable risk to the public at large. Now some of that isn't even true. Allowing guns in society in general means that there will be a certain amount of gun crime. Certainly the aggregated use of guns in this country has led to a non-zero amount of gun crime and thus there is an overall risk to the American populace by allowing guns to be legal. Yet we do not use that public interest to then strip all guns away even though if you could remove enough guns you would start to affect the overall probabilities of gun crime. So there is a limit to what we can do, even in "public interest".

    However, as related to this debate, there is concern that what is being stripped away is being done so only by thoughts of assumption and supposition, not actual risks. What are the probabilities that any one of us can die on any given day? How is that probability affected by allowing or banning guns on campus? There has to be an effect there if you wish to infringe upon the rights of the individual. I've already stated that on my campus (in general in CO), concealed carry is allowed. There are bars, and young adults, and guns; yet there has been no shootings or anything of the like here. So obviously, just allowing adults to carry concealed, even on University property, does very little to our actual risk factors. If that is the case, then there is no "public interest", there is no legitimate argument by which you can authorize government force against the rights and liberties of the individual.

    We've already decided to be free, that in and of itself carries with it the greatest amount of risk. Small perturbations above and below that mark are not going to manifest themselves in significant increases/decreases to our overall risk and probabilities of death.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron River View Post
    No law will keep a person with bad intentions from taking a gun to a school Ė unless the law is one that leaves the person wondering how many guns he may face at the school.
    Don't take this wrong guy, but you're opining from a highly questionable position. Young kids think they're indestructable just as we did when we were young and they are not about to stop and worry about how many other guns they'd face-off against in the big Gunfght at the school OK Corral. They don't take rules too damned seriously and it's getting worse. Allowing students to carry a weapon into school, any weapon, is against "the public interest". You have to start viewing this from a b-r-o-a-d-e-r constitutional and legal standard. Why? Because they, the courts, will set the bottom line on this and common sense will be the ultimate yardstick of opinion for rendering judgement.


    Did you ever think that if the teachers were armed there might have been less violence against the teachers and the students?
    I have, but then I thought that if the threat of violence is that great in a school, they need to go to a one entrance ONLY policy with armed security and a walk-through metal detector and all exits as alarmed fire doors that can only be opened from the inside with security cams monitoring the inside of exit fire-door area.


    You canít possibility tell us that the teachers were never attacked or threatened. I personally know a teacher that was molested and threatened on a regular basses. If she had shot the first student that grabbed her breast the other thugs would have been less likely to touch any of the teachers.
    Guess what? Wrong method of resolution. She would have had her ass sued off! And if she was found liable due to use of excessive force that could actually have the reverse effect on wiseass punks who respect nobody and nothing.
    "Ignorance confuses. Knowledge mediates. Truth resolves." (doctorhugo)

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Yes, but you need to demonstrate that public interest. Public interest in and of itself does not override individual rights. There has to be a quantifiable risk to the public at large. Now some of that isn't even true. Allowing guns in society in general means that there will be a certain amount of gun crime. Certainly the aggregated use of guns in this country has led to a non-zero amount of gun crime and thus there is an overall risk to the American populace by allowing guns to be legal. Yet we do not use that public interest to then strip all guns away even though if you could remove enough guns you would start to affect the overall probabilities of gun crime. So there is a limit to what we can do, even in "public interest".

    However, as related to this debate, there is concern that what is being stripped away is being done so only by thoughts of assumption and supposition, not actual risks. What are the probabilities that any one of us can die on any given day? How is that probability affected by allowing or banning guns on campus? There has to be an effect there if you wish to infringe upon the rights of the individual. I've already stated that on my campus (in general in CO), concealed carry is allowed. There are bars, and young adults, and guns; yet there has been no shootings or anything of the like here. So obviously, just allowing adults to carry concealed, even on University property, does very little to our actual risk factors. If that is the case, then there is no "public interest", there is no legitimate argument by which you can authorize government force against the rights and liberties of the individual.

    We've already decided to be free, that in and of itself carries with it the greatest amount of risk. Small perturbations above and below that mark are not going to manifest themselves in significant increases/decreases to our overall risk and probabilities of death.
    I respect you for a lot of reasons, but I just don't buy all of that. Guns are in and of themselfs a risk. We ahve the numbers of how often people shoot themselves. It's a fair number. Add to a population less likley to make great decisions, and you increase the risk. We don't live in the frontier anymore. The need for the tool is far less than it was when this country was first forming. In fact, most of the reasons for the 2nd amendment no longer exist. So, while I'm against any complete ban on guns, we an still exercise good sense and not have too many folks running around with guns where they are not needed.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    You keep saying this, but you have nothing to back it up with. What is the risk? How much is it? Do you understand that this is a major flaw in your arugment? Does it penetrate your skull that when you say it is a needless risk that maybe you should quantify the risk. If I get rid of guns on my campus today, how much lower is the probability that I will be killed that day? How much? Can you answer it? Because if you say it is a risk then it must have some effect on my overall probabilities of death on any given day. So, what is it? How much are my probabilities lowered by removing guns on my campus?

    You can't say anything in any amount of quantifiable assertion. And yet you want us to accept infringments against the rights of the individual based on your flawed, incomplete, and illogical argument? You can't be f'n serious.
    As I have said before, it's a logic problem and not one to link to anything. As we ahve not had guns on campus, there will have been no studies. But, that doesn't mean we can't think and make reasonable assumptions based on the information we do have of the population we're speaking of.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Yes, but you need to demonstrate that public interest. Public interest in and of itself does not override individual rights. There has to be a quantifiable risk to the public at large. Now some of that isn't even true. Allowing guns in society in general means that there will be a certain amount of gun crime. Certainly the aggregated use of guns in this country has led to a non-zero amount of gun crime and thus there is an overall risk to the American populace by allowing guns to be legal. Yet we do not use that public interest to then strip all guns away even though if you could remove enough guns you would start to affect the overall probabilities of gun crime. So there is a limit to what we can do, even in "public interest".

    However, as related to this debate, there is concern that what is being stripped away is being done so only by thoughts of assumption and supposition, not actual risks. What are the probabilities that any one of us can die on any given day? How is that probability affected by allowing or banning guns on campus? There has to be an effect there if you wish to infringe upon the rights of the individual. I've already stated that on my campus (in general in CO), concealed carry is allowed. There are bars, and young adults, and guns; yet there has been no shootings or anything of the like here. So obviously, just allowing adults to carry concealed, even on University property, does very little to our actual risk factors. If that is the case, then there is no "public interest", there is no legitimate argument by which you can authorize government force against the rights and liberties of the individual.

    We've already decided to be free, that in and of itself carries with it the greatest amount of risk. Small perturbations above and below that mark are not going to manifest themselves in significant increases/decreases to our overall risk and probabilities of death.
    UofC?

    I was going to look up their actual policy.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    As I have said before, it's a logic problem and not one to link to anything. As we ahve not had guns on campus, there will have been no studies. But, that doesn't mean we can't think and make reasonable assumptions based on the information we do have of the population we're speaking of.
    It's not a mere logic problem and yes you need to provide evidence.

    Can we get someone a little more skilled at debate that Boo here? I was really hoping for an opportunity to refine how the argument would go down in court, where evidence is mandatory.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    How often does that occur?
    Well, one person has brough a shot to my classroom, so of those who do, 100% of the time.

    You aren't even posting the data, though.
    It isn't a data question. It hasn't happened in forever, so there is no data to cite. Look support is a good thing, but it doesn't replace the ability to reason. Sometimes, when there has been any studies, we have to think, reason, look at other data, like how college students behave with other responsibilities.


    That's fine that you hold that position, but you need to demonstrate it.

    I can tell you right now that whatever argument you can make against firearms, I can make a stronger argument on medical mistakes and vehicular homicide; so by your logic we have to ban cars and paramedics before we ban firearms.
    Well, that's subjective. Some will agree with you, and others not so much. And no one is doing surgery in the classroom or driving in the classroom. The thing is not about elimanating all risk, just NEEDLESS risk.


    One of my chief instructors was, is, militant gun control. Oh yes, he would not have hesitated.
    So, he didn't see. Can you really be sure no one knew? Or that no one else would ever let anyone see? That's a hard standard to meet.


    So there was no reason in mentioning it in this debate.
    None other than I thought it was interesting. I thought I'd ask students what they thought. Did so again in two classes, and the result was near the same. I just thought it was worth asking. So I shared. But I never claimed it proved anything, and did in fact note that it didn't.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    But I never claimed it proved anything, and did in fact note that it didn't.
    There's a Basement thread dedicated to recording things "noted", and as you didn't post your 'note' in that thread, I know it therefore was not "noted".

    Anyway, I didn't see any hyperlinks to your sources, so I'll assume you're simply expressing your opinion again. Which is fine, by the way, but I'm looking for actual debate, which necessarily means the presentation of data via credible sources.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    There's a Basement thread dedicated to recording things "noted", and as you didn't post your 'note' in that thread, I know it therefore was not "noted".

    Anyway, I didn't see any hyperlinks to your sources, so I'll assume you're simply expressing your opinion again. Which is fine, by the way, but I'm looking for actual debate, which necessarily means the presentation of data via credible sources.
    That's not true. I deal in debate and argument, and they do not require data or research. They require something more important, reasoning. Data, if it exists, can be helpful, but it does not replace reasoning.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I deal in debate and argument, and they do not require data or research.
    preposterous

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