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Thread: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    The invitation to offer a fact-based argument remains open.
    If you insist. Per capita violent crime in 2004 (the legal picture wasn't much different 7 years ago):



    The table explaining the colors is here:

    File:US Violent Crime 2004.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The remarkable thing here is that states with relatively rural, and primarily smaller populations (e.g., the South and Desert states) have violent crime rates comparable to densely-populated urban states like California and New York. I don't necessarily attribute that totally to the prevalance of guns - a lot of it is probably just that conservative states have disproportionately violent, authoritarian cultures - but it would seem like a correlation that shouldn't be ignored.

    Anyway, there's a nice factual argument for you. I still maintain that the heart of the matter is cultural rather than technical, because you and I both know that all the studies in the world wouldn't convince NRA members that gun control is a good idea - they don't care what guns do or don't do for and to the people of any given state, they just want them and insist that any level of regulation is an "infringement." Period.
    Last edited by Troubadour; 03-01-11 at 10:32 PM.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    [QUOTE=Jerry;1059319645]
    I'm sure others will point to collage rape, Virginia Tech, and the right of everyone to have a firearms in their home (and should therefore be allowed to have a firearm if they live on campus) so I'll go another direction.

    If I understand you correctly, no one should bring anything to class they're not going to use. What I would like to know is, if it's not disruptive and it's not going to harm you, why should you care?
    The rapes are not done in the classroom or in the parking lot going to class. And I know very few professionals who think students being armed would have helped with VT. In fact, an expert on the matter came and trained us after the incident, as people were rightly concerned, and they said not only no to the idea, but HELL NO.

    But school is a specific place with a specific purpose. Many actually control your cell phone for example, as they should. And there is far less risk with a cell phone than a gun. A gun is a tool, and it is used for specific purposes. There is no one in the classroom for that purpose.

    The data presented in the Harvard study showed exactly that, though, as did my other source. Even if you don't personally carry, you are safer when you are in an armed population.
    No, I read it and it didn't. The Harvard study showed next to know difference they could prove. They understand causal relationship errors which is why they did not make the leap you do. They did not claim you were safer. Nor did they claim you were less safe.


    Well to be fair I don't think anyone will be hunting bear with the class of weapons we're talking about. My concealed carry is a snub-nosed .38 revolver, good only at near point-blank range. It's the 3" folding knife of firearms. I also carry a 3" folding knife.
    Neither is needed.

    In fact, there are a number of ways to carry concealed
    Ways but no real purpsoe for it.

    True story: At Dakota Tech I wore a blue rubber training pistol in a CCW holster (inside the waistband, t-shirt untucked, for those curious) for a couple weeks. No one ever noticed, or if they did, they didn't care. I would assume that if anyone thought I was carrying a real firearm that they would have said something either to me or to the proper authorities. If they held my political opinion on the matter, they would at least ask why I was carrying a trainer in due coarse of making small-talk.
    They may have said something to someone else, because who wants to talk to someone with a gun.

    However, I did ask my class tonight, and out of 25, found only one who thought it was a good idea. He was in his mid twenties. Both my over 50 students, one male and one female, thought it was a bad idea, and woudl not come to class with weapons allowed. And none of the traditional age students thought it was a good idea. I just asked to see. Too small a group for any kind of statisitcal data, but thought it was interesting.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  3. #283
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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Based on what evidence?
    Common sense and knowing your population. Not to mention liability concerns.


    CCW holders? Yes, if not more so.
    You're more trusting than I am.


    As is your right.
    Yep.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Common sense and knowing your population. Not to mention liability concerns.
    No no, "evidence", as in empirical data collected by a credentialed, reputable entity, who's findings are published.

    What verifiable facts do you base your opinion on?

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post

    The rapes are not done in the classroom or in the parking lot going to class. And I know very few professionals who think students being armed would have helped with VT. In fact, an expert on the matter came and trained us after the incident, as people were rightly concerned, and they said not only no to the idea, but HELL NO.

    But school is a specific place with a specific purpose. Many actually control your cell phone for example, as they should. And there is far less risk with a cell phone than a gun. A gun is a tool, and it is used for specific purposes. There is no one in the classroom for that purpose.
    A cell phone is disruptive, a concealed pistol is not. Please demonstrate the need to infringe on someone's right to be secure in their person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No, I read it and it didn't. The Harvard study showed next to know difference they could prove. They understand causal relationship errors which is why they did not make the leap you do. They did not claim you were safer. Nor did they claim you were less safe.
    I was careful to say "the data in the study", not "the study". Please redress your argument accordingly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Neither is needed.
    That doesn't matter, though. Rights are shall-issue privileges, which means that unless you can "show cause" to withhold the right, it 'shall be issued'. As the Harvard study concluded, the 'burden of proof' is on you to show why people should not be allowed to carry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Ways but no real purpsoe for it.
    The purpose is to posses on your person a weapon in such a manner where no one knows you have it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    They may have said something to someone else, because who wants to talk to someone with a gun.
    Uh, the cops Carrying a firearm in a school zone is a felony in my state.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    However, I did ask my class tonight, and out of 25, found only one who thought it was a good idea. He was in his mid twenties. Both my over 50 students, one male and one female, thought it was a bad idea, and woudl not come to class with weapons allowed. And none of the traditional age students thought it was a good idea. I just asked to see. Too small a group for any kind of statisitcal data, but thought it was interesting.
    Oh, very good. Please disclose your real identity, credentials, methods of collecting data and demographic data of your surveyed sample for publishing.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Troubadour View Post
    Anyway, there's a nice factual argument for you.
    You shot down your own point by admitting there was only a mere possibility of a vague correlation, and that you could not prove causality.

    I see nothing in that post I need to debate.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    You shot down your own point by admitting there was only a mere possibility of a vague correlation, and that you could not prove causality. I see nothing in that post I need to debate.
    Umm, no. There is not a "mere possibility of a vague correlation," there is a correlation, period. That's what it means when two facts are related to a third fact. And my noting that it's a correlation rather than a causal proof is what's known as "honest discussion." I know this is an alien concept to the NRA and its affiliated constituencies, but we here in Reality Land like to offer information as it is rather than just make things up to justify what we wish were the case.

    Now, this is your thread, and you want this to be about statistics rather than moral/ethical arguments, so I gave you some. But rather than dealing with those facts - i.e., trying to come up with alternative explanations for the correlation - you simply dismiss it because you find it inconvenient. This is what we call "dishonest debate tactics," as contrasted with the concept of "honest discussion" I mentioned earlier. Credibility means a lot here in Reality Land, but I will respect whatever cultural differences may cause people from other places to consider it not worth having.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Troubadour View Post
    Umm, no. There is not a "mere possibility of a vague correlation," there is a correlation, period. That's what it means when two facts are related to a third fact. And my noting that it's a correlation rather than a causal proof is what's known as "honest discussion." I know this is an alien concept to the NRA and its affiliated constituencies, but we here in Reality Land like to offer information as it is rather than just make things up to justify what we wish were the case.

    Now, this is your thread, and you want this to be about statistics rather than moral/ethical arguments, so I gave you some. But rather than dealing with those facts - i.e., trying to come up with alternative explanations for the correlation - you simply dismiss it because you find it inconvenient. This is what we call "dishonest debate tactics," as contrasted with the concept of "honest discussion" I mentioned earlier. Credibility means a lot here in Reality Land, but I will respect whatever cultural differences may cause people from other places to consider it not worth having.
    Speaking of which, I really should join the NRA.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    A cell phone is disruptive, a concealed pistol is not. Please demonstrate the need to infringe on someone's right to be secure in their person.
    It is if someone shoots themself. I once saw a student hurt herself with a shot put. In the classroom. Imagine if it were a gun she mishandled.

    I was careful to say "the data in the study", not "the study". Please redress your argument accordingly.
    The data without interpretation doesn't mean anything. It's just numbers. That's why Harvard didn't reach the conclusions you do. Statistics do not speak for themself.


    That doesn't matter, though. Rights are shall-issue privileges, which means that unless you can "show cause" to withhold the right, it 'shall be issued'. As the Harvard study concluded, the 'burden of proof' is on you to show why people should not be allowed to carry.
    Again, there is cause. It's a liability issue, a needless risk, with no place for it in the HS.


    The purpose is to posses on your person a weapon in such a manner where no one knows you have it.
    Which means nothing to this debate.


    Uh, the cops Carrying a firearm in a school zone is a felony in my state.
    Many wouldn't go that far.

    Oh, very good. Please disclose your real identity, credentials, methods of collecting data and demographic data of your surveyed sample for publishing.
    There are those here who know who I am, having seen a newpaper artcile featuring me. I'm a teacher at a cummunity college. However, if you read what I wrote, please pay attention to what I was careful to include: Too small a group for any kind of statisitcal data, but thought it was interesting.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Common sense and knowing your population. Not to mention liability concerns.
    So no data, only assumption and supposition. Got it. You have nothing but will continue on like you do. Understood.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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