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Thread: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

  1. #271
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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    So you would agree, then, that people over a certain age should be allowed to carry on campus, as your concern for 'young adult immaturity' would no longer be an issue.
    No. But it would less a safety issue. The second part of my issue is there is no place for the tool to be used on campus. It's funny to hear anyone think they need a gun on campus.

    You've already expressed this many times, and I appreciate your opinion, but on what data to base your position? Do you have real examples of schools which allow firearms and have an increased crime rate? Have you reviewed the history of public education before firearms were banned and noted a drop in gun-related crime with the passing of a ban?
    Again, the majority of college students are younger than 27, mid to lower twenties. So, the likelihood of trouble is high. That said, there would be studies as there is no wide spread group to study. Most studies I know of do not prove we are safer armed. They don't prove we're less safe either (the actual point of your Harvard study). I will never understand anyone feeling the need the need to carry a gun around who is not involved in some risky endeavor. And yes, I ahve to admit, I think it says something disconcerting about the person overall. Most of us live just fine without one. Most of us are not victims, and do not see any serious problems without one.

    ***
    As a sidebar, I'm a person who frequently packs things I don't obviously need so that I am prepared for the rare occurrence. For example;
    • I keep a full set (5) of uniform patches in the left arm pocket of my ACUs. I've only had to use the spare flag, and then only once, but u never know.
    • I keep my cell-phone charger in my right calf pocket even-though I know I'll be able to go back to my room and charge it long before the battery runs out.
    • I have a phone card in my wallet with important phone numbers taped to it even-though I have a cell.
    • I have a bag of salt, cat litter, anti-freeze, quart of oil, snow shovel, liter of water and a sleeping bag in the trunk of my car, in addition to the spare tire and cables.


    So, to me, carrying a gun to class is like carrying my molti-tool to class, which I do. I don't expect to have to fix anything in class, but I'm not focused only on my class. These are things I need in my life regardless of where I am or what I'm doing, because my circumstances change as the day goes by. Lacking a crystal ball, I don't know what life is going to toss at me, so I try to prepare and be ready to improvise, adapt and overcome.
    I understand. My wife is more like that. I'm not. I do just fine with whatever I have around me. But I understand being prepared. I just see too few circumstances where you would actually need a weapon. And my experience tells me we shoot ourselves more than anything else (and I think the numbers support that as well). Sometimes, when we over do something, we actually cause more problems than we prevent. Guns are simply not needed everywhere. On campus, you won't be hunting bear. You won't run in to a band of Bandits or wild mongolian raiders. Students go to class daily and nothing happens to them. They get into more trouble drinking off campus.

    There is just no palce for a weapon on campus.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    If you ever discover a fact-based argument you would like to offer, please do so.
    Gun issues aren't based on facts for either side. Some people just fetishize the idea of guns, and others have a (far more rational) aversion to being surrounded by them. If I showed a study that argued for gun control, gun lobbyists would just say it doesn't matter because 18th century farmers thought everyone should have the right to a single-shot barrel-loaded musket. And there are other studies that argue against gun control, but they don't change the fact that I and many others find the idea of turning our communities into armed camps to be the opposite of liberating.

    Texas is not trying to put guns on college campuses because they sat down with the data and made a high-minded analysis about what would be best for college students, they just like guns, like the idea of guns being everywhere, and enjoy trying to push them into places that have traditionally resisted them. That's all there is to it. It's a bad state that does a lot of bad, dehumanizing things to its people, and it goes further through the Looking Glass every day.
    Last edited by Troubadour; 03-01-11 at 08:44 PM.

  3. #273
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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    You cannot make laws which strip away rights. For instance, you cannot claim that the open practice of Christianity is illegal and make a law against it. It's not due process, you can't say "well it's a law, so that's due process". The only just way to strip one of their ability to exercise their rights is through the court system, by being brought before a judge and jury.
    What I'm trying to say is I believe you misunderstand the right. It is not absolute. It can be restricted and has been since the first days of this country.


    Evidence to doubt, but you need beyond a reasonable doubt to strip and adult of their ability to exercise their rights. As I have said, what you claim is not the case in reality. What you claim is just what you thought up in your mind taking apparently standard Animal House stereotypes and applying it to everyone. With no thought about who would or wouldn't carry a gun even if it were allowed, the probabilities at stake, and the ability of people who would choose to carry a gun to do so rationally and maturely.
    I think it is beyond reasonable doubt. We know with almost certainty that sooner or later someone will make a mistake. The history is fairly clear on this and the maturity level.



    Some schools can be very dangerous. Hell, even at my school which is in a relatively safe portion of the US, there are quite a number of sexual assaults and robberies and such. An adult has the right to defend themselves against these acts and to the tools by which he can do so. Guns are one form of tool. You want to strip away the rights of adults with no real proof. It's all "one isn't needed" "schools are not that dangerous" blah blah blah. It's all crap because all of that are ASSUMPTIONS and SUPPOSITIONS on YOUR part. You still have yet to PROVE anything. Any time now, we're waiting.
    Like I said, I taught at a school voted the second most violent campus in America. And the need never came up for anyone to need a gun. To be honest, I think it so clear, so rooted in commone sense that asking for proof is like asking for proof that driving drunk is a bad idea. But, I have given proof of the maturity level, and I see no evidence of anyone needing a gun on campus.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No. But it would less a safety issue. The second part of my issue is there is no place for the tool to be used on campus. It's funny to hear anyone think they need a gun on campus.
    I'm sure others will point to collage rape, Virginia Tech, and the right of everyone to have a firearms in their home (and should therefore be allowed to have a firearm if they live on campus) so I'll go another direction.

    If I understand you correctly, no one should bring anything to class they're not going to use. What I would like to know is, if it's not disruptive and it's not going to harm you, why should you care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Again, the majority of college students are younger than 27, mid to lower twenties. So, the likelihood of trouble is high. That said, there would be studies as there is no wide spread group to study. Most studies I know of do not prove we are safer armed. They don't prove we're less safe either (the actual point of your Harvard study). I will never understand anyone feeling the need the need to carry a gun around who is not involved in some risky endeavor. And yes, I ahve to admit, I think it says something disconcerting about the person overall. Most of us live just fine without one. Most of us are not victims, and do not see any serious problems without one.
    The data presented in the Harvard study showed exactly that, though, as did my other source. Even if you don't personally carry, you are safer when you are in an armed population.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I understand. My wife is more like that. I'm not. I do just fine with whatever I have around me. But I understand being prepared. I just see too few circumstances where you would actually need a weapon. And my experience tells me we shoot ourselves more than anything else (and I think the numbers support that as well). Sometimes, when we over do something, we actually cause more problems than we prevent. Guns are simply not needed everywhere. On campus, you won't be hunting bear. You won't run in to a band of Bandits or wild mongolian raiders. Students go to class daily and nothing happens to them. They get into more trouble drinking off campus.
    Well to be fair I don't think anyone will be hunting bear with the class of weapons we're talking about. My concealed carry is a snub-nosed .38 revolver, good only at near point-blank range. It's the 3" folding knife of firearms. I also carry a 3" folding knife.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    There is just no palce for a weapon on campus.
    In fact, there are a number of ways to carry concealed

    True story: At Dakota Tech I wore a blue rubber training pistol in a CCW holster (inside the waistband, t-shirt untucked, for those curious) for a couple weeks. No one ever noticed, or if they did, they didn't care. I would assume that if anyone thought I was carrying a real firearm that they would have said something either to me or to the proper authorities. If they held my political opinion on the matter, they would at least ask why I was carrying a trainer in due coarse of making small-talk.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    This is a joke right? Please tell me it's a joke.

    What next? "Texas legalizes consensual sex between minors and adults"?

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Troubadour View Post
    Gun issues aren't based on facts for either side. Some people just fetishize the idea of guns, and others have a (far more rational) aversion to being surrounded by them. If I showed a study that argued for gun control, gun lobbyists would just say it doesn't matter because 18th century farmers thought everyone should have the right to a single-shot barrel-loaded musket. And there are other studies that argue against gun control, but they don't change the fact that I and many others find the idea of turning our communities into armed camps to be the opposite of liberating.

    Texas is not trying to put guns on college campuses because they sat down with the data and made a high-minded analysis about what would be best for college students, they just like guns, like the idea of guns being everywhere, and enjoy trying to push them into places that have traditionally resisted them. That's all there is to it. It's a bad state that does a lot of bad, dehumanizing things to its people, and it goes further through the Looking Glass every day.
    The invitation to offer a fact-based argument remains open.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    What I'm trying to say is I believe you misunderstand the right. It is not absolute. It can be restricted and has been since the first days of this country.
    Very true, but rights can not be restricted arbitrarily. In order for your right to be restricted, it must infringe on someone els's right. If you had reviewed my link to the critically relevant SCOTUS ruling you would have been able to articulate a fact-based and informed objection.

    Me carrying a gun you never know is there doesn't affect you in any way.

    Heh, in fact, my carrying a gun you never knew was there while remodeling your kitchen/bathroom didn't hurt you either
    Last edited by Jerry; 03-01-11 at 09:06 PM.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    My core feeling on this is that we “shouldn't” need to carry a firearm on a college campus. However, we live in a crazy world today, and it's gets worse every day.

    In my opinion, we have to accept that we live in a dangerous world, that is just a fact and while we don't have to like it, we shouldn't run around with our heads in the sand saying it isn't so either.
    The study examined all reported incidents of “targeted violence” since 1900 and found that 60 percent of the 272 cases of college violence have occurred in the last 20 years. About 30 percent of the total number of reported cases occurred between 2000 and 2008, the study said.
    With campus violence on the rise as it is, I think that if I was going to college in this day and age, that I would arm myself. Simply put, I think it would be easier for me to look back and say “boy I'm glad I never needed to use it” then to be laying in a hospital bed (or worse) and be saying I wish I would have had a weapon.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Very true, but rights can not be restricted arbitrarily. In order for your right to be restricted, it must infringe on someone els's right. If you had reviewed my link to the critically relevant SCOTUS ruling you would have been able to articulate a fact-based and informed objection.

    Me carrying a gun you never know is there doesn't affect you in any way.

    Heh, in fact, my carrying a gun you never knew was there while remodeling your kitchen/bathroom didn't hurt you either
    I think it's kind of like what your call an infringement. Schools rightly don't want the risk. You may not think that is infringing on their rights, but they may disagree, knowing their population.

    BTW, do you believe everyone is as responsible as you?

    In any case, if I knew you had a gun while remodeling my kitchen, I'd have fired you and gotten someone else.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I think it's kind of like what your call an infringement. Schools rightly don't want the risk. You may not think that is infringing on their rights, but they may disagree, knowing their population.
    Based on what evidence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    BTW, do you believe everyone is as responsible as you?
    CCW holders? Yes, if not more so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    In any case, if I knew you had a gun while remodeling my kitchen, I'd have fired you and gotten someone else.
    As is your right.

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