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Thread: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    But that's just it. Gun accidents happen all the time, and they haven't put a halt to the advancement of gun rights yet. You may not realize it, but mothers are part of the gun culture as well. It is a pervasive part of the USA.

    Gun accidents and gun violence are a tremendous public health concern, yet somehow they don't see to hinder the gun culture.. Your theory that it will "only take one" to undo gun rights just doesn't hold up.

    When it comes to something as big as Heller, there is no going back. As big a ruling as Heller was it would take an utter sea change in public opinion to undo it.
    I think I realize things fairly well, but mothers and the gun movement are more rual than urban. So, I largely think they are smaller. And while accidents happen, they don't happen at school. I believe that difference will mean something. It won't make any major change in guns law, but will remove them from schools, where they don't belong to begin with.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    As I've often said, I have no emotional attach to any tool, including a weapon. Evidence is more than just a study about something that you can't study yet. You can make reasonable predictions based other examples of the population and how they handle other adult responsibilities. If you can show that they make major mistakes and act immaturely with other adult repsonsibilities, and I that has been shown, you can make reasonable assumptions.
    But you haven't shown anything. I, on the other had provided REAL WORLD DATA on the scenario where it says you are not at any greater risk. Since these are ADULTS we are talking about, not children, and you have no evidence and the only evidence which exists is contrary to your point; the rights of the individual should win out. You hold no logical and defendable argument on this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Add to the fact there is no reason for a gun in the classroom. It's not that guns in and of them self are bad or a problem, buit that they are a risk that simply has no reason for being. There is no good reason to have a gun in the classroom. And I tell you, many school administrators simply won't want to take that risk. And it has been shown that they present just that argument, as does at least one police chief (if we look we might find more).
    But the fact you cite is nothing more than your assumption. You assume there is no reason for having them. You show no data along those lines, You cite other people who have made similar assumptions, but where's the proof? If you want to talk elementary, jr. high, or even high school; then ok I can see the ability to put in those restrictions (though we were allowed to bring guns to school property in high school where I was from, and there was never an issue with it). But those are kids. This is college, where the average age is in the low 20's. These are ADULTS we're talking about. You may want to again ASSUME that they cannot handle the responsibility if they choose to exercise their rights. But these are all assumptions, you've shown nothing more.

    We are dealing with adults, not kids. Adults have all their rights recognized. The only way to justly use government force against the rights and liberties of another is through the court system. They have to do something wrong, get caught doing something wrong, the State needs to make their case before a jury of the defendant's peers, that jury needs to reach a guilty verdict. You cannot restrict the exercise of rights to adults just because you fear they will act inappropriately. They actually have to act inappropriately first. You have no aggregated statistics, you have no defendable argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Jerry, as for average age, averages are effected by many factors. Meaning, that one school may be heavy with adult learners and another less so. A few 50 year old students ups the average. Most students are of traditional age, meaning younger. It also isn't that students all of the sudden mature at 21. In fact, I believe that there are brain studies that suggest the brian isn't fully developed until your mid to late twenties:

    On the contrary, the adolescent brain undergoes a dramatic transformation between the ages of about 10 and the mid-twenties, rivaled only by the changes that occur in early childhood.

    Adolescent Brain | AEA 267 R4

    For the teen, however, the PFC is undeveloped, and the emotional brain (including the amygdala mentioned above) rules the moment, until the PFC is developed in the mid-twenties. The teen thinks: "This is going to be exciting!"-if he thinks at all. Auto insurance companies figured this one out long ago.

    The Teenager's Brain | Psychology Today
    We're not talking about adolescent of teenagers; we're talking about adults

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Also, I neither believe guns on campus will cause or prevent a Columbine or VT. I buy neither guns will save us or destory us. It is merely a tool. Nothing more.
    Allowing guns on campus most likely would not prevent mass shootings. Those are done by crazy people and it's always been difficult to predict crazy people. However, it will also not cause these sorts of shootings. In short, your probability for death will be mostly unaltered by allowing guns on campus. That being the case, that actually allowing guns on campus will have little to no effect (as you've admitted here) on your overall probabilities, there is then no just reason by which you can employ government force against the rights and liberties of the individual.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    But you haven't shown anything. I, on the other had provided REAL WORLD DATA on the scenario where it says you are not at any greater risk. Since these are ADULTS we are talking about, not children, and you have no evidence and the only evidence which exists is contrary to your point; the rights of the individual should win out. You hold no logical and defendable argument on this point.
    We may disagree on that. I think I have shown that with like responsibilities, young people have not been responsible. And that accidents with firearms are common.

    As for your stats, they seem to speak to something other than what I'm speaking to. I have made no claim concerning shooting each other or criminal activitity.

    But the fact you cite is nothing more than your assumption. You assume there is no reason for having them. You show no data along those lines, You cite other people who have made similar assumptions, but where's the proof? If you want to talk elementary, jr. high, or even high school; then ok I can see the ability to put in those restrictions (though we were allowed to bring guns to school property in high school where I was from, and there was never an issue with it). But those are kids. This is college, where the average age is in the low 20's. These are ADULTS we're talking about. You may want to again ASSUME that they cannot handle the responsibility if they choose to exercise their rights. But these are all assumptions, you've shown nothing more.

    We are dealing with adults, not kids. Adults have all their rights recognized. The only way to justly use government force against the rights and liberties of another is through the court system. They have to do something wrong, get caught doing something wrong, the State needs to make their case before a jury of the defendant's peers, that jury needs to reach a guilty verdict. You cannot restrict the exercise of rights to adults just because you fear they will act inappropriately. They actually have to act inappropriately first. You have no aggregated statistics, you have no defendable argument.
    Assumption based on information concerning maturity level and documented cases of young people being irresponsible with their adult responsibilities. They have the right to be stupid, and are regularly, which is why insurance companies tend to charge them more.

    We're talking about young adults, not mature adults, who do in fact make serious mistakes and often fail in their responsibilities.

    We're not talking about adolescent of teenagers; we're talking about adults
    We're talkng about 21 year olds, which are not in their mid to late twenties. It's just asking for trouble.




    Allowing guns on campus most likely would not prevent mass shootings. Those are done by crazy people and it's always been difficult to predict crazy people. However, it will also not cause these sorts of shootings. In short, your probability for death will be mostly unaltered by allowing guns on campus. That being the case, that actually allowing guns on campus will have little to no effect (as you've admitted here) on your overall probabilities, there is then no just reason by which you can employ government force against the rights and liberties of the individual.
    Nor have I argued it is the cause. Not one line has ever argued it was the cause or that there would be more such shootings. The risk would be for accidental shootings, which would affect stats minimally at best. But, it would be a needless risk. There is no place or need for guns in the classroom. Few if any administartors or teachers want this, and liability issues would be foremost on their minds. And I bet my last dollar that one cccident will bring the weight of parents down on this issue.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    We may disagree on that. I think I have shown that with like responsibilities, young people have not been responsible. And that accidents with firearms are common.

    As for your stats, they seem to speak to something other than what I'm speaking to. I have made no claim concerning shooting each other or criminal activitity.

    Assumption based on information concerning maturity level and documented cases of young people being irresponsible with their adult responsibilities. They have the right to be stupid, and are regularly, which is why insurance companies tend to charge them more.

    We're talking about young adults, not mature adults, who do in fact make serious mistakes and often fail in their responsibilities.

    We're talkng about 21 year olds, which are not in their mid to late twenties. It's just asking for trouble.

    Nor have I argued it is the cause. Not one line has ever argued it was the cause or that there would be more such shootings. The risk would be for accidental shootings, which would affect stats minimally at best. But, it would be a needless risk. There is no place or need for guns in the classroom. Few if any administartors or teachers want this, and liability issues would be foremost on their minds. And I bet my last dollar that one cccident will bring the weight of parents down on this issue.
    Again, you're making an argument against gun-ownership per-se, not against carrying on campus specifically.

    What you're doing occurs every time we bring up this topic. Those who oppose guns on campus are topically those who oppose gun ownership in general.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    It doesn't matter. Just because you want to keep making these little deviations so that you can try to explain why you can use government force against people doesn't mean that you're talking about something relevant. Young adult, old adult, middle aged adult; it doesn't matter. They are ADULTS. That's what matters. At 18, regardless of what you believe about brain chemistry, all the rights and privileges and responsibilities of a person are recognized. Asking for "trouble" or not, it's all aside. Your personal feelings about maturity are not to actually influence the rights and liberties of others.

    Everything you have said is essentially this "I don't think there should be guns on campus, therefore all adults should have their rights infringed upon and prevented from having guns because I think it would be better this way."

    If you think that makes a coherent and valid argument, you're fooling yourself. You cannot infringe upon the rights of others just because you feel like it. Not justly. Your feelings are not proper argument against the rights of others. That's the bottom line. You can feel any way you want, but just because you feel something doesn't give you the just power to use government force against the rights and liberties of the individual. You have to have PROOF. For the love of all that is holy, can you not understand that point? You have no proof, only assumption, supposition, and feelings. You have a few administrators who don't want it, but it's all based on the same flawed logic. Without data you cannot do what you want to do because what you want is an act of government force and coercion against the individual. For that to be done, you need evidence, you need proof, you need something more than some dumbass assumption that "there is no place or need for guns in the classroom" (which is again YOUR ASSUMPTION and not proper argument).

    The rights and liberties of all adults are fully recognized. That's it. I have SHOWN you that in places where this is legal, there has been no problem with it. You have shown nothing but assumption, supposition, and feeling. No proof, no numbers, no logical and rational argument. You feel they are immature, you feel that it would be dangerous (even though no probabilities are actually affected). That's all you have, and none of it makes for proper argument for government force against the rights and liberties of the individual.

    And that's the bottom line.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Again, you're making an argument against gun-ownership per-se, not against carrying on campus specifically.

    What you're doing occurs every time we bring up this topic. Those who oppose guns on campus are topically those who oppose gun ownership in general.
    No, that's not the case. I think your side reads too much into things for some strange reason.

    I have no emotional attachment or concerns towards guns. It is nothing more than a hammer, a tool, use for a purpose. The reasons it was mention in the constitution no longer apply, making the amendment obsolete, but still law. I rarely think about it, but don't want them in my classroom. There is simply no need or purpose in the classroom for them. There are no shootouts in which they'd be required to have one.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It doesn't matter. Just because you want to keep making these little deviations so that you can try to explain why you can use government force against people doesn't mean that you're talking about something relevant. Young adult, old adult, middle aged adult; it doesn't matter. They are ADULTS. That's what matters. At 18, regardless of what you believe about brain chemistry, all the rights and privileges and responsibilities of a person are recognized. Asking for "trouble" or not, it's all aside. Your personal feelings about maturity are not to actually influence the rights and liberties of others.

    Everything you have said is essentially this "I don't think there should be guns on campus, therefore all adults should have their rights infringed upon and prevented from having guns because I think it would be better this way."

    If you think that makes a coherent and valid argument, you're fooling yourself. You cannot infringe upon the rights of others just because you feel like it. Not justly. Your feelings are not proper argument against the rights of others. That's the bottom line. You can feel any way you want, but just because you feel something doesn't give you the just power to use government force against the rights and liberties of the individual. You have to have PROOF. For the love of all that is holy, can you not understand that point? You have no proof, only assumption, supposition, and feelings. You have a few administrators who don't want it, but it's all based on the same flawed logic. Without data you cannot do what you want to do because what you want is an act of government force and coercion against the individual. For that to be done, you need evidence, you need proof, you need something more than some dumbass assumption that "there is no place or need for guns in the classroom" (which is again YOUR ASSUMPTION and not proper argument).

    The rights and liberties of all adults are fully recognized. That's it. I have SHOWN you that in places where this is legal, there has been no problem with it. You have shown nothing but assumption, supposition, and feeling. No proof, no numbers, no logical and rational argument. You feel they are immature, you feel that it would be dangerous (even though no probabilities are actually affected). That's all you have, and none of it makes for proper argument for government force against the rights and liberties of the individual.

    And that's the bottom line.
    What've tried to point out is there is a difference between a 21 year old and a thrity one year old. Those ten years make a major difference. You may be an adult at twentyone, but your brain is not yet fully developed. And we see twentyone year olds make serious mistakes routinely.

    And while I understand your bottomline, the fact is they are more likely to make mistakes. That fact doesn't change.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No, that's not the case. I think your side reads too much into things for some strange reason.

    I have no emotional attachment or concerns towards guns. It is nothing more than a hammer, a tool, use for a purpose. The reasons it was mention in the constitution no longer apply, making the amendment obsolete, but still law. I rarely think about it, but don't want them in my classroom. There is simply no need or purpose in the classroom for them. There are no shootouts in which they'd be required to have one.
    I reject the notion that anyone should be forced to show a need to exorcise any constitutionally protected right.

    Case in point: Today I'm picking up my foster brother from school. I won't even be getting out of the car. However, since firearms are banned from school property, I have to leave me weapon at home. So, please explain to me why I, a 32 y/o soldier and CCW holder, am a public safety hazard.

    Also, having them in class is incidental. Students usually need the firearms in the parking lot, not the classroom, but they have to have them in the classroom in order to already be armed when they get to the parking lot.
    Last edited by Jerry; 02-28-11 at 03:11 PM.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I reject the notion that anyone should be forced to show a need to exorcise any constitutionally protected right.

    Case in point: Today I'm picking up my foster brother from school. Since firearms are banned, I have to leave me weapon at home. So, please explain to me why I, a 32 y/o soldier and CCW holder, am a public safety hazard.

    You see, having them in class is incidental. Students usually need the firearms in the parking lot, not the classroom, but they have to have them in the classroom in order to already be armed when they get to the parking lot.
    I can see a single reason why that would bother you. I seldom bring my hammer with me everywhere. And no, students don't need them in the parking lot. Millions go to class each day and never need anything of the kind. This world isn't quite that dangerous. Sometimes all we fear is fear itself. If you can't get to class without a fire arm, you have problems your firearm won't handle.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    What've tried to point out is there is a difference between a 21 year old and a thrity one year old. Those ten years make a major difference. You may be an adult at twentyone, but your brain is not yet fully developed. And we see twentyone year olds make serious mistakes routinely.

    And while I understand your bottomline, the fact is they are more likely to make mistakes. That fact doesn't change.
    It doesn't matter if there's a difference between a 21 year old and a 30 year old. They are both adults, both have the full of their rights and liberties recognized. That's it. Oh, someone may be more likely to do X. Fine, but what's the point. There's a **** ton of X's in the US because of freedom. People will abuse free speech and religion and association; do we start removing those abilities from certain segments of the population? No, you can't do anything until someone does X. That's how our system works, it is REACTIVE not proactive. I can't believe this has to be explained. Someone had to do something first before you can employ government force against their rights.

    All sorts of people make serious mistakes routinely, it's not limited to the young or the old. There's a lot of people who **** up a lot of stuff for a lot of various reasons. Just because something like that happens to be the case does not mean that you are then justified in removing their ability to exercise certain rights. You are not. This is one of the consequences of freedom. They actually have to act against the rights of others before you can justly call in government force against their rights. That is the bottom line, and in that accord what you call for is nothing short of tyranny. You wish to restrict rights not based on action and proof; but rather on supposition and feeling.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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