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Thread: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    I prefer liberty, even if there are some associated risks, to restrictive paternalism... at least where fundamental rights are involved.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Of course you don't see it as a rights violation because you don't wish to see it as such. The individual has right to keep and bear arms, that right is not to be infringed upon. When you restrict where one can carry a gun, you infringe upon that right. Some of it can be seen as reasonable such as private property where the property owner doesn't want guns on it. However, for public land such as a public University, it's different. By preventing someone from bearing arms, you infringe upon that right to bear arms. If you wish to do so, you must have a valid reason. Yes, if there were more schools allowed concealed carry, we could have better aggregated statistics. However, what my example proves is the break down of your argument. You're saying that if we allow these adults (not kids) to exercise their rights, that there will be a significant increase in our safety concerns. But that's not the case in CO at all. We have had no school shootings on campuses which allow guns. Even though there are bars and even though guns can be brought onto campus. Heck, Fort Collins itself is open carry and people are allowed to carry in businesses and bars (you cannot drink if you're carrying though). We're not a high crime rate city, there's not a lot of shootings. Young people behind the wheel still present the largest probability of death to me.

    And while rights can be restricted, sometimes even justly, it requires evidence and proof. Of which you have none. Nothing is not sufficient argument for the use of government force against the rights and liberties of the individual.
    As I've often said, I have no emotional attach to any tool, including a weapon. Evidence is more than just a study about something that you can't study yet. You can make reasonable predictions based other examples of the population and how they handle other adult responsibilities. If you can show that they make major mistakes and act immaturely with other adult repsonsibilities, and I that has been shown, you can make reasonable assumptions.

    Add to the fact there is no reason for a gun in the classroom. It's not that guns in and of them self are bad or a problem, buit that they are a risk that simply has no reason for being. There is no good reason to have a gun in the classroom. And I tell you, many school administrators simply won't want to take that risk. And it has been shown that they present just that argument, as does at least one police chief (if we look we might find more).

    Jerry, as for average age, averages are effected by many factors. Meaning, that one school may be heavy with adult learners and another less so. A few 50 year old students ups the average. Most students are of traditional age, meaning younger. It also isn't that students all of the sudden mature at 21. In fact, I believe that there are brain studies that suggest the brian isn't fully developed until your mid to late twenties:

    On the contrary, the adolescent brain undergoes a dramatic transformation between the ages of about 10 and the mid-twenties, rivaled only by the changes that occur in early childhood.

    Adolescent Brain | AEA 267 R4

    For the teen, however, the PFC is undeveloped, and the emotional brain (including the amygdala mentioned above) rules the moment, until the PFC is developed in the mid-twenties. The teen thinks: "This is going to be exciting!"-if he thinks at all. Auto insurance companies figured this one out long ago.

    The Teenager's Brain | Psychology Today

    Also, I neither believe guns on campus will cause or prevent a Columbine or VT. I buy neither guns will save us or destory us. It is merely a tool. Nothing more.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Why do you need a special law to enforce a constitutional right? According to the Supreme Court rulings in Heller and McDonald, the new meaning of the second amendment should allow guns on any public school campus.

    It's a fundamental right.
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 02-28-11 at 11:27 AM.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    I can't drink at 18, why should I have a gun.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I prefer liberty, even if there are some associated risks, to restrictive paternalism... at least where fundamental rights are involved.
    They're not mutually exclusive.

    At any rate, I fundamentally don't understand the American belief that liberty is worth more than life. Life, then liberty, then the pursuit of happiness, as your own motto says. Life should trump all.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Why do you need a special law to enforce a constitutional right? According to the new Supreme Court rulings, the new meaning of the second amendment should allow guns on any public school campus.

    It's a fundamental right.
    I don't think that is exactly what the ruling means. And it also has changed more than a few times over the decades.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    I can't drink at 18, why should I have a gun.
    Same reason you can vote and exercise free speech. It's in the Constitution.

    Maybe drinking should be a fundamental right, too, but it ain't in there.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Marteau View Post
    They're not mutually exclusive.

    At any rate, I fundamentally don't understand the American belief that liberty is worth more than life. Life, then liberty, then the pursuit of happiness, as your own motto says. Life should trump all.
    Many seem to have never seen Malow's hieracy of needs.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Same reason you can vote and exercise free speech. It's in the Constitution.

    Maybe drinking should be a fundamental right, too, but it ain't in there.
    If I drink in protest to the law is that not free speech?

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Why do you need a special law to enforce a constitutional right? According to the Supreme Court rulings in Heller and McDonald, the new meaning of the second amendment should allow guns on any public school campus.

    It's a fundamental right.
    Because the Constitution isn't infallible. The Constitution, while at times marvellously innovative, should not be help up as some perfect Word of God, from which all law must stem. It is important, yet also an old and outdated document. Many of its concepts still hold water, but many others don't. The right to bear arms was a fundamentally different subject in the Age of Empires than in our Post-Modern era. Where the frontiersmen of North America found it necessary to live the life of the pioneer and defend their own, all the free gun laws in the States today do is get 11,000 Americans killed in criminal activity each year.

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