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Thread: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    But you have no data to back your claim. You are making assumptions based on generalized behavior of undergraduates and then applying that stereotype to people who may wish to carry guns. One of the biggest threats to my life in my age group is car related fatality. One of the most dangerous age brackets for this are kids, 16-23 have terrible driving abilities, and then again on the downside. Do we ban the young and old from driving because it could potentially be dangerous? It's a hell of a lot more dangerous than a few people on campus carrying a gun. All you're saying is that you have a feeling it would be worse. Where as I tell you from personal experience, and real life data that in at least one State it has made NO difference. And it won't. Because the sheer numbers of people carrying weapons will not be that high. Believe it or not, most people will elect not to carry a gun. You're not actually affecting any probabilities. So in the absence of that, does it really make sense to restrict the rights and liberties of young adults because you have a feeling? I think the rational answer to that is "no".
    Yeah. I don't anyone who has studied guns in the classroom. So, to some degree you're right. but I didn't need a study to tell me car sufering was a bad idea either, or NCLB for that matter.

    And while I agree with the numbers won't be high, sooner or later someone will make a mistake, especially if the idea goes national. The risk, small or large, is simply unecessary. It is one thing to take a necessary risk, and quite another to take one that isn't needed.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Yeah. I don't anyone who has studied guns in the classroom. So, to some degree you're right. but I didn't need a study to tell me car sufering was a bad idea either, or NCLB for that matter.

    And while I agree with the numbers won't be high, sooner or later someone will make a mistake, especially if the idea goes national. The risk, small or large, is simply unecessary. It is one thing to take a necessary risk, and quite another to take one that isn't needed.
    Sooner or later all probabilities will work out. Given enough time, we'll have another terrorist attack. Given enough time there will be another mass shooting. Given enough time there will be earthquakes and volcano eruptions. But if you have not significantly affected the probabilities, then you have done relatively nothing to the actual system at hand. To say there is more "danger", that statement needs to be quantified with calculated increases in probabilities highlighting significant increase in those probabilities above baseline. If you don't have that, you just have speculation and appeal to low probability events. I do not believe that low probability events are proper justification for the restriction and removal of an adult's ability to freely exercise their rights.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Sooner or later all probabilities will work out. Given enough time, we'll have another terrorist attack. Given enough time there will be another mass shooting. Given enough time there will be earthquakes and volcano eruptions. But if you have not significantly affected the probabilities, then you have done relatively nothing to the actual system at hand. To say there is more "danger", that statement needs to be quantified with calculated increases in probabilities highlighting significant increase in those probabilities above baseline. If you don't have that, you just have speculation and appeal to low probability events. I do not believe that low probability events are proper justification for the restriction and removal of an adult's ability to freely exercise their rights.
    I'm sure that will be done as this is more common and we have a chance to study it. But that doesn't mean we stop thinking about it. We can look at it, look at who will be carrying, the possible problems. In doing so, we can make some judgements. And people are making such judgements:

    Similar firearms measures have been proposed in about a dozen other states, but all face strong opposition, especially from college leaders.

    Texas college students may soon be allowed to carry guns | Houston & Texas News | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

    There are reasons for this. repeating my own thoughts;

    "There is no scenario where allowing concealed weapons on college campuses will do anything other than create a more dangerous environment for students, faculty, staff and visitors," Oklahoma Chancellor of Higher Education Glen Johnson said in January.

    University of Texas President William Powers has opposed concealed handguns on campus, saying the mix of students, guns and campus parties is too volatile.

    Those were from the same article.

    It is a needless risk with fewer benefits than risk.

    You might also consider this:

    A House bill that would allow college students to carry guns on campus could make it harder for law enforcement agencies to effectively respond to a school shooting, according to McNeese State University’s police chief.

    “If we go into a situation and there are several people with guns, we have to stop and address each one of those people,” Chief Cinnamon Salvador said Thursday.

    “Every second we have to stop and spend with one of them to ascertain if they’re good or bad guys, the bad guy could still be in the building shooting people.”

    McNeese police chief opposes bill allowing guns on campus (5/15) : Headline News

    But for me, it's just such a needless risk, with no clear up side, I see as no less nonsensical as car surfing. It's just a bad idea, based on a faulty premise.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Not so long ago (last semester), the Board of Governors tried to take away our ability to carry concealed on our campus. But if faced strong opposition, especially from college leaders.

    You keep saying it's a needless risk, but you cannot demonstrate the risk. You cannot quantify the probabilities and tell me how much more above baseline, I'm in danger. If you can't do that, how do you think you have a proper argument for the removal of the exercise of a right? Free is dangerous, it is innately so. You cannot divorce danger from free. By choosing to be free we have already said that we are going to live with a certain level of danger. Yet you propose that the rights of adults be infringed upon based on your supposition and assumption alone. Sorry, but that's not something I'll be able to agree with.

    All that in your quotes there make the SAME ASSUMPTIONS you are making. Drunk people with guns. But that's supposition, that's assumption; and that is not proper basis for the restriction of rights. As I have said, we have guns on our campus. We have bars on our campus. Where's the shootings? Been here since 1870, where's our drunken shootings? And of course cops don't want people to have guns, it makes their jobs harder; but that also is no excuse to curtail the exercise of rights and liberties.

    In the end we are talking about an adult population, of whom we allow the full exercise of their rights. You cannot just say "I think this will make things more dangerous" without showing any evidence for it being more dangerous and expect to have made proper argument to restrict the rights of the individual. Once again, assumption and supposition do not make proper arguments to remove the exercise of a right from our law abiding, adult population.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Not so long ago (last semester), the Board of Governors tried to take away our ability to carry concealed on our campus. But if faced strong opposition, especially from college leaders.

    You keep saying it's a needless risk, but you cannot demonstrate the risk. You cannot quantify the probabilities and tell me how much more above baseline, I'm in danger. If you can't do that, how do you think you have a proper argument for the removal of the exercise of a right? Free is dangerous, it is innately so. You cannot divorce danger from free. By choosing to be free we have already said that we are going to live with a certain level of danger. Yet you propose that the rights of adults be infringed upon based on your supposition and assumption alone. Sorry, but that's not something I'll be able to agree with.

    All that in your quotes there make the SAME ASSUMPTIONS you are making. Drunk people with guns. But that's supposition, that's assumption; and that is not proper basis for the restriction of rights. As I have said, we have guns on our campus. We have bars on our campus. Where's the shootings? Been here since 1870, where's our drunken shootings? And of course cops don't want people to have guns, it makes their jobs harder; but that also is no excuse to curtail the exercise of rights and liberties.

    In the end we are talking about an adult population, of whom we allow the full exercise of their rights. You cannot just say "I think this will make things more dangerous" without showing any evidence for it being more dangerous and expect to have made proper argument to restrict the rights of the individual. Once again, assumption and supposition do not make proper arguments to remove the exercise of a right from our law abiding, adult population.
    It can't be quanitifed yet, as it hasn't been wide spread so no studies have been done. I'm sure in time more will be done, especially if more people start bringing guns to the classroom.

    And yes, it is an assumption, but a reasonable assumption based on how this popuilation has handled their other adult responsibilities. Yes, they are allowed to drink, and do so less responsibilty than older more mature populations. Yes, they are allowed to drive, but do so less responsibily than older more mature populations. We than then logically predict that they will treat weapons less responsibily than older more mature populations. As i said earlier, at this point, I think it is a logic problem.

    So, as there have been no studies on this specific issue, we cannot present numbers on it specifically. So, we have to look at how this population handles other adult responsibilities. I know no other way to try and tackle it. Looking at how they have behaved and handled those other responsibilities suggests they will be less responsible and make more mistakes. I think that is a reasonable conclusion.

    Also, logically, it is fair to ask, what purpose can a weapon in the classroom serve? Not much. Students getting shot in the classroom is even rarer than accidents with hadn guns, by an overwhelming large number. As overwhelming guns have not been allowed in classrooms, we don't have much to count as accidents with them there. But a few years with them in the classroom may well change that.

    But I see no reason to test it when I think we can see before hand the problems there will likely be.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    They are not reasonable assumptions as I have already demonstrated that your assumptions have broken down in at least one State. You keep saying these things on hearsay and supposition, but I offered you actual data. Data verses supposition; data wins.

    These are adults, adults have their rights recognized. If you want to infringe upon that through the use of government force against our exercise of our rights, YOU NEED DATA! You cannot properly nor justly use force against our free exercise of our rights based on your feelings and assumptions. You keep saying "oh what value would a gun in a classroom have...not much". But that is again your ASSUMPTION. You ASSUME it can have no value, you make the claim without proof, without data, without reason. And I'm supposed to be ok with authorizing government force against the exercise of our rights based on your continued insistence upon assumption and supposition? Not bloody likely. If you want to use force against my rights, then you are going to have to have something a lot more solid than your assumptions.
    Last edited by Ikari; 02-25-11 at 04:44 PM.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    They are not reasonable assumptions as I have already demonstrated that your assumptions have broken down in at least one State. You keep saying these things on hearsay and supposition, but I offered you actual data. Data verses supposition; data wins.

    These are adults, adults have their rights recognized. If you want to infringe upon that through the use of government force against our exercise of our rights, YOU NEED DATA! You cannot properly nor justly use force against our free exercise of our rights based on your feelings and assumptions.
    I don't think so. You haven't had the right that long yet. Not to mention your state would be but a small sample. the more states involved, further removed from rural America, and I think you will see more and more problems.

    I also don't think is a rights violation. Courts will likely rule on that. But, rights are not allowed everywhere. rights are often resistricted in some areas, and rightly so.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    More crime? I think I said more accidents. And I gave accident stats. It's like more young people driving cars means more driving accidents. Young folks have more accidents than mature drives on average. Same is likely with guns, for much the same reasons.
    The average age of a collage student is 25, not 18.
    In fact:

    Data from the 2005 Community College Survey of Student Engagement (CCSSE) shows that a student at a U.S. institution of higher education is almost as likely to be in her 30s, taking care of dependents and working full-time as she is to be 19, in a sorority, getting financial assistance from the parental unit and taking 15 credit hours a semester.

    Feature Story: No Average Student: Community college students not your 'typical' undergrads, says College of Education survey

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Harvrd isn't making the claim you are. They are not saying more guns lower the crime rate.
    ........the burden
    of proof rests on the proponents of the more guns equal
    more death and fewer guns equal less death mantra, especially
    since they argue public policy ought to be based on
    that mantra.149 To bear that burden would at the very least
    require showing that a large number of nations with more
    guns have more death and that nations that have imposed
    stringent gun controls have achieved substantial reductions
    in criminal violence (or suicide).....
    So, Boo Radley, where is your demonstration that more guns = more death?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Actually, that's not what I said. I amde ajoke that you have no experience if you believe things contrary to what experience should have taught you. But whether a young person drinks on campus or off campus, the issue was one of maturity and not drinking.
    That's an argument against gun ownership in general, though, not of guns on campus specifically. If you take issue with <25 y/o possessing a firearms due to maturity, that's fine, but you therefore must allow students >25 to carry on campus as maturity is no longer an issue.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I don't think so. You haven't had the right that long yet. Not to mention your state would be but a small sample. the more states involved, further removed from rural America, and I think you will see more and more problems.

    I also don't think is a rights violation. Courts will likely rule on that. But, rights are not allowed everywhere. rights are often resistricted in some areas, and rightly so.
    Of course you don't see it as a rights violation because you don't wish to see it as such. The individual has right to keep and bear arms, that right is not to be infringed upon. When you restrict where one can carry a gun, you infringe upon that right. Some of it can be seen as reasonable such as private property where the property owner doesn't want guns on it. However, for public land such as a public University, it's different. By preventing someone from bearing arms, you infringe upon that right to bear arms. If you wish to do so, you must have a valid reason. Yes, if there were more schools allowed concealed carry, we could have better aggregated statistics. However, what my example proves is the break down of your argument. You're saying that if we allow these adults (not kids) to exercise their rights, that there will be a significant increase in our safety concerns. But that's not the case in CO at all. We have had no school shootings on campuses which allow guns. Even though there are bars and even though guns can be brought onto campus. Heck, Fort Collins itself is open carry and people are allowed to carry in businesses and bars (you cannot drink if you're carrying though). We're not a high crime rate city, there's not a lot of shootings. Young people behind the wheel still present the largest probability of death to me.

    And while rights can be restricted, sometimes even justly, it requires evidence and proof. Of which you have none. Nothing is not sufficient argument for the use of government force against the rights and liberties of the individual.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Of course you don't see it as a rights violation because you don't wish to see it as such. The individual has right to keep and bear arms, that right is not to be infringed upon. When you restrict where one can carry a gun, you infringe upon that right. Some of it can be seen as reasonable such as private property where the property owner doesn't want guns on it. However, for public land such as a public University, it's different. By preventing someone from bearing arms, you infringe upon that right to bear arms. If you wish to do so, you must have a valid reason. Yes, if there were more schools allowed concealed carry, we could have better aggregated statistics. However, what my example proves is the break down of your argument. You're saying that if we allow these adults (not kids) to exercise their rights, that there will be a significant increase in our safety concerns. But that's not the case in CO at all. We have had no school shootings on campuses which allow guns. Even though there are bars and even though guns can be brought onto campus. Heck, Fort Collins itself is open carry and people are allowed to carry in businesses and bars (you cannot drink if you're carrying though). We're not a high crime rate city, there's not a lot of shootings. Young people behind the wheel still present the largest probability of death to me.

    And while rights can be restricted, sometimes even justly, it requires evidence and proof. Of which you have none. Nothing is not sufficient argument for the use of government force against the rights and liberties of the individual.
    Let's recall that Columbine was a gun-free zone. As was Virginia Tech.

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