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Thread: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

  1. #181
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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Apart from backhoes not fitting through church doors, I honestly have no idea what any of your points are.
    Well, it's not that it would lower anything. Create more risk. Needless risk. Kind of like Car sufering and NCLB, other dumb ideas.

    Assuming "a certain level of understanding of the world" is like my showing up to a fresh lot and assuming the foundation is finished. Boo Radley, you and I don't even have sewer or electrical ready. We're not ready for the curb and gutter, even, because we don't have a common plat plan for the township.
    Don't assume anything. [/QUOTE]

    All agruments have assumptions. It is virtually impossible not to have some.
    You asked, I answered. I don't see how this advanced your argument.
    I guess it's equal then as I don't understand this coment.


    Since guns lower the crime rate, gun-free-zones are public hazards and any property, public or private, who wishes to have a gun-free-zone should have to seek a permit from the State and show cause just like they do for any other public hazard.
    Speaking of assumptions, that is not a proven fact. Have you ever heard of the causal relationship (fallacy) error? You may want to look that up.

    I try to spend all my free time with my 2 sons. Between class and work, I don't have time for drinking for the sake of drinking.

    Besides, liquor isn't allowed on campus.
    Which has nothing to do with any pointed you're responding to.

    That's a strong argument for banning alcohol from the campus. At Black Hills State University, we're not allowed to have liquor on the property, not even beer, ever. See, this is why it's erroneous to "assume a certain level of understanding of the world". We don't all have Boo Radley's life experiences. At BHSU, yes there are parties, but not out of control frat parties like you see in a teen movies. That's just hollywood. That's not real.
    But keep in in context of our discussion. It speaks to maturity.

    See, that proves my point against using personal experience again; I don't know the world from the side of a gurney as you do. I know the world from the grip of a hammer.
    Personal experience is not conclusive, not for either of us, but it can give insight. A lot of people don't know the tool well as evidenced not only by personal exience, but by satisitics that show a large number of people hurting not criminals, but themselves.

    You just proved that A. accidents happen, and B. there are stupid people. Toss in alcohol and you have a perfectly safe learning environment, yes?
    Yep. And there are likely to be more of them in school as they all haven't matured yet. Giving them guns is not wise to carry around at school is not wise.

    Of course. Ban liquor, allow the firearm.
    Alcohol only makes the problem worse. the problem is there even without the alcohol.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  2. #182
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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Yep. And there are likely to be more of them in school as they all haven't matured yet. Giving them guns is not wise to carry around at school is not wise.
    I don't see the point. I have bars and guns on my campus, and it's not like it's the OK Corral out there. In fact, we've never had a school shooting.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  3. #183
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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I don't see the point. I have bars and guns on my campus, and it's not like it's the OK Corral out there. In fact, we've never had a school shooting.
    I don't think I said the OK corral, but that the risk increases needlessly. It's just not a good idea. Not everyone who car sufered got hurt. But it was stupid all the same.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  4. #184
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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I don't think I said the OK corral, but that the risk increases needlessly. It's just not a good idea. Not everyone who car sufered got hurt. But it was stupid all the same.
    Yeah, but car surfing has inherent dangers in it. Adults with guns does not. You're making assumptions about maturity, alcohol consumption, use of firearm, and convergence of groups. Sure, a lot of college students drink themselves stupid; but those aren't necessarily the ones who carry guns. In fact, it's typically not. Or if one who usually conceal carries does get drunk, often times they leave their gun at home (in fact, you're not allowed to conceal carry if you're drinking). I don't see the risk increase. It's marginal at best, it's not going to drastically affect probabilities of life and death. And as we can see in the real world in CO, it doesn't mean there will be increased shootings or violence. Ft. Collins is a safe place...so long as Greeley stays in Greeley. But that's not the fault of guns, that's just f'n Greeley.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  5. #185
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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Well, it's not that it would lower anything. Create more risk. Needless risk. Kind of like Car sufering and NCLB, other dumb ideas.
    This is exactly the sort of claim you need to back up directly. Show an actual, real instance where more guns = more crime.

    I gave you credible research demonstrating, comprehensibly, that guns lower crime. You need to show an actual, real, case in point where guns increased the crime rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Speaking of assumptions, that is not a proven fact. Have you ever heard of the causal relationship (fallacy) error? You may want to look that up.
    Please show us how Harvard made a causal relationship error in the study I quoted in the OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Which has nothing to do with any pointed you're responding to.
    Your "point" was that I had no experience in a collage nor was I over the age of 20. In fact, I'm 32, and the collages I've attended do not permit alcohol on campus, so there are no drunken frat parties.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    But keep in in context of our discussion. It speaks to maturity.
    Not in my state, it doesn't. This is the inherent problem with basing your argument off of your experience; no one but you shares your experience. You need empirical data.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Alcohol only makes the problem worse. the problem is there even without the alcohol.
    Alcohol increases crime, guns lower crime, therefore ban alcohol and allow guns. Result: lower crime.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Yeah, but car surfing has inherent dangers in it. Adults with guns does not. You're making assumptions about maturity, alcohol consumption, use of firearm, and convergence of groups. Sure, a lot of college students drink themselves stupid; but those aren't necessarily the ones who carry guns. In fact, it's typically not. Or if one who usually conceal carries does get drunk, often times they leave their gun at home (in fact, you're not allowed to conceal carry if you're drinking). I don't see the risk increase. It's marginal at best, it's not going to drastically affect probabilities of life and death. And as we can see in the real world in CO, it doesn't mean there will be increased shootings or violence. Ft. Collins is a safe place...so long as Greeley stays in Greeley. But that's not the fault of guns, that's just f'n Greeley.
    **** Greeley, 2 years of my life I'll never get back.

  7. #187
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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    [QUOTE=Jerry;1059309644]
    This is exactly the sort of claim you need to back up directly. Show an actual, real instance where more guns = more crime.

    I gave you credible research demonstrating, comprehensibly, that guns lower crime. You need to show an actual, real, case in point where guns increased the crime rate.
    More crime? I think I said more accidents. And I gave accident stats. It's like more young people driving cars means more driving accidents. Young folks have more accidents than mature drives on average. Same is likely with guns, for much the same reasons.

    Please show us how Harvard made a causal relationship error in the study I quoted in the OP.
    Harvrd isn't making the claim you are. They are not saying more guns lower the crime rate.

    Your "point" was that I had no experience in a collage nor was I over the age of 20. In fact, I'm 32, and the collages I've attended do not permit alcohol on campus, so there are no drunken frat parties.
    Actually, that's not what I said. I amde ajoke that you have no experience if you believe things contrary to what experience should have taught you. But whether a young person drinks on campus or off campus, the issue was one of maturity and not drinking.

    Not in my state, it doesn't. This is the inherent problem with basing your argument off of your experience; no one but you shares your experience. You need empirical data.
    No, it speaks to maturity regardless of state or personal experience. I think you're missing the point.

    Alcohol increases crime, guns lower crime, therefore ban alcohol and allow guns. Result: lower crime.
    I'm sorry, but that is not a fact. You're making a causal relationship error.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  8. #188
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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Yeah, but car surfing has inherent dangers in it. Adults with guns does not. You're making assumptions about maturity, alcohol consumption, use of firearm, and convergence of groups. Sure, a lot of college students drink themselves stupid; but those aren't necessarily the ones who carry guns. In fact, it's typically not. Or if one who usually conceal carries does get drunk, often times they leave their gun at home (in fact, you're not allowed to conceal carry if you're drinking). I don't see the risk increase. It's marginal at best, it's not going to drastically affect probabilities of life and death. And as we can see in the real world in CO, it doesn't mean there will be increased shootings or violence. Ft. Collins is a safe place...so long as Greeley stays in Greeley. But that's not the fault of guns, that's just f'n Greeley.
    The point was that younger persons are more likely to be immature and do stupid things. Some drink themselves stupid. Some forget to go class and forget to drop when they get too far behind. Some drive to fast in bad whether, hurting themselves and others. Others throw a shot put in a classrom and take out a knee (actually happened). The point is, placing young inmature people in more dangerous situations isn't smart.

    yes, we live with a certain amount of risk. And maybe we shouldn't even do as much as we do. We'd certainly lose less young folks if we dealt with out issues concering automobiles. But, there is no good reason to add yet another risk. There is no palce in the classroom for an armed student.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  9. #189
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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    **** Greeley, 2 years of my life I'll never get back.
    That place is a ****hole. Probably should be removed.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  10. #190
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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    The point was that younger persons are more likely to be immature and do stupid things. Some drink themselves stupid. Some forget to go class and forget to drop when they get too far behind. Some drive to fast in bad whether, hurting themselves and others. Others throw a shot put in a classrom and take out a knee (actually happened). The point is, placing young inmature people in more dangerous situations isn't smart.

    yes, we live with a certain amount of risk. And maybe we shouldn't even do as much as we do. We'd certainly lose less young folks if we dealt with out issues concering automobiles. But, there is no good reason to add yet another risk. There is no palce in the classroom for an armed student.
    But you have no data to back your claim. You are making assumptions based on generalized behavior of undergraduates and then applying that stereotype to people who may wish to carry guns. One of the biggest threats to my life in my age group is car related fatality. One of the most dangerous age brackets for this are kids, 16-23 have terrible driving abilities, and then again on the downside. Do we ban the young and old from driving because it could potentially be dangerous? It's a hell of a lot more dangerous than a few people on campus carrying a gun. All you're saying is that you have a feeling it would be worse. Where as I tell you from personal experience, and real life data that in at least one State it has made NO difference. And it won't. Because the sheer numbers of people carrying weapons will not be that high. Believe it or not, most people will elect not to carry a gun. You're not actually affecting any probabilities. So in the absence of that, does it really make sense to restrict the rights and liberties of young adults because you have a feeling? I think the rational answer to that is "no".
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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