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Thread: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    What are the rules of engagement? If someone else flashes theirs first does that make them the starter of the firefight? Is it illegal to duel? What can't I do with my gun?
    You can either target practice at a proper location or defend your life or the life of another. That's it. If you take your weapon out of your holster for any other reason it had better to to clean or secure it.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    You can either target practice at a proper location or defend your life or the life of another. That's it. If you take your weapon out of your holster for any other reason it had better to to clean or secure it.
    I forget the people-maybe the Gurkhas but they carried knives for defense and offense and they were taught if they drew their knife they better draw blood. so if one drew his knife and there was no enemy he'd cut himself before sheathing his blade.



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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    If you have any evidence to substantiated your argument, please let us know.
    I've shown evidence. Twice. It was ignored both times.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBook View Post
    Something to note, the NRA named 10 states as lacking a "right to carry" law. This is a list from the most recent FBI crime database, with those 10 stats highlighted.

    https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...me-states.html

    The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence made a list of states with what they call lax gun control laws.

    Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence : Media

    This group is also pretty well spread out across the violent crime list.
    Basically, the argument that guns make people safer is NOT shown by this data. The argument that being restrictive about them isn't either.
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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    In SD we're moving away from requiring a permit at all.

    Given all the evidence demonstrating the benefit of an armed society, we view the requirement of a permit to exercise a specifically enumerated protected right as the equivalent of having to register your religion or get a permit to express a political opinion.

    It is already illegal for the state or vendors to keep a list or require registration of any firearm, in the interest of privacy. The move away from requiring a permit follows that line of thinking.
    What state do you live in?
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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    In SD we're moving away from requiring a permit at all.

    Given all the evidence demonstrating the benefit of an armed society, we view the requirement of a permit to exercise a specifically enumerated protected right as the equivalent of having to register your religion or get a permit to express a political opinion.

    It is already illegal for the state or vendors to keep a list or require registration of any firearm, in the interest of privacy. The move away from requiring a permit follows that line of thinking.
    Dang, that'll make getting away with murder so, so much easier. Not to mention gun-running.
    “The more you know, the harder it is to take decisive action. Once you become informed, you start seeing complexities and shades of gray. You realize that nothing is as clear and simple as it first appears. Ultimately, knowledge is paralyzing.” - Bill Watterson
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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    What state do you live in?
    He said SD.
    "This Administration will constantly strive to promote an ownership society in America. We want more people owning their own home. It is in our national interest that more people own their own home. After all, if you own your own home, you have a vital stake in the future of our country."" GWB

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Your answer was:
    The Harvard study doesn't anddress any of my points. I have not claimed it would reduce anything.


    Do you have anyone of verifiable authority saying it? Link please.
    Again, it boils down to verify what? I do assume a certain level of understanding of the world.

    Accidental discharge is a crime, and a civil suit for damages would follow, also.
    Yes, there would be. But it would go beyond that. Parents would attack the school. They would want to know what the hell guns were doing on campus. Anyone who has only partially paid attention to the nature of the world would know this.

    Please cite the case-law or statute you're getting this information from.
    It is difficult. But the rule for colleges is to not ingore reasonable possibilities for injury. Even if they are likley to win such a case, someone would argue that a reasonable person would see the likihood of something going badly.

    Now guns have not been an issue on campus, but we can look at student safety as the guding prinicple:

    More recent cases which reverses belatedly reverses this bystander approach and is gradually, but slowly working towards a more rational approach towards campus safety issues-Duty Era Cases.

    Colleges’ Civil Liability Exposure Related to Student Safety-Executive Summary

    Fornegligence liability purposes . . . . .

    (snip)

    What is more important, according to these cases, is whether the college took adequate precautions to ensure saftey of its students, even if it did not have total control of the site.

    The Law of Higher Education - Google Books

    And from a source you likel won't care for:

    The change in CCW laws has had serious security implications for institutions concerned about the welfare of their customers, employees, and students. Can such institutions trust that CCW licensees are law-abiding, non-violent, well-trained citizens? Unfortunately, the answer is no. Many dangerous CCW applicants have slipped through faulty state background checks, while others have been marginal, highrisk applicants who nonetheless must be issued a CCW license because they do not fit within a narrow, pre-set list of excluded persons.

    (snip)

    Schools have a legal duty to provide safeenvironments for their students, employees,and visitors. Courts have established that
    schools can be held liable if they do not takeadequate measures to maintain a safe environment.

    http://www.arsafeschools.com/files/n...nd_-_final.pdf


    If you're trying to argue a demographic trend, please cite the study your getting your data from.
    OK. you've never been to a college party, at spring break, or been in your 20's.

    Binge drinking shows immaturity of some students

    "Binge drinking is deadly," said Jackie McHargue, dean of students, in an e-mail interview. "Across the country, more than 1,000 students die every year in alcohol related deaths."

    " + artTitle.replace("-","") + " - " + "The Blue Banner" + " - " + "Editorial" + "

    COLUMN: Aussies attribute high drinking age to immaturity

    COLUMN: Aussies attribute high drinking age to immaturity - Iowa State Daily: Opinion






    Again, there's a difference between a flook criminal and general demographic. Please site the study you're getting your information from.
    Not sure what you mean by flook (a typo perhaps?) And it is true, here I draw on personal experience of working on an ambulence for a decade and seeing people shoot themselves a lot, and I have a ton of stories on the matter. But, I don't think it takes a study to know we don't know, use or work with guns like did once upon a time.

    In 2007, there were 613 fatal firearm accidents in the United States . . .

    Gun Control

    The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) estimated 52,447 deliberate and 23,237 accidental non-fatal gunshot injuries in the United States during 2000.

    Gun violence in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Working links to research studies by credentialed persons or institutions, statistics, crime data from government or credentialed sources, etc. At this point, a link of any kind would be a step forward for you. It's irrational, if not utterly arrogant, to simply state your opinion and assume others are just going to instantly agree.
    There is certainly a place for support, links, but it should not replace the ability to reason. Without the ability to reason, a link is meaningless. We all live in this world, and experience is also important to reasoning.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBook View Post
    I've shown evidence. Twice. It was ignored both times.
    Because I don't know what you're trying to say.

    Let's clerify:
    Quote Originally Posted by TheBook
    Something to note, the NRA named 10 states as lacking a "right to carry" law. This is a list from the most recent FBI crime database, with those 10 stats highlighted.

    https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...me-states.html
    Ok, there are 10 states without a right to carry law.....and?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBook
    The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence made a list of states with what they call lax gun control laws.

    Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence : Media
    Alright, pro-gun-control doesn't like the lack of gun control in a few states.....what's your point?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBook View Post
    Basically, the argument that guns make people safer is NOT shown by this data. The argument that being restrictive about them isn't either.
    So, basically, your data is benign. It neither supports nor opposes either side, is what you just said. Ok....so what?

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    The Harvard study doesn't anddress any of my points.
    Apart from backhoes not fitting through church doors, I honestly have no idea what any of your points are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Again, it boils down to verify what? I do assume a certain level of understanding of the world.
    Assuming "a certain level of understanding of the world" is like my showing up to a fresh lot and assuming the foundation is finished. Boo Radley, you and I don't even have sewer or electrical ready. We're not ready for the curb and gutter, even, because we don't have a common plat plan for the township.

    Don't assume anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Yes, there would be. But it would go beyond that. Parents would attack the school. They would want to know what the hell guns were doing on campus. Anyone who has only partially paid attention to the nature of the world would know this.
    You asked, I answered. I don't see how this advanced your argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It is difficult. But the rule for colleges is to not ingore reasonable possibilities for injury. Even if they are likley to win such a case, someone would argue that a reasonable person would see the likihood of something going badly.

    Now guns have not been an issue on campus, but we can look at student safety as the guding prinicple:
    Since guns lower the crime rate, gun-free-zones are public hazards and any property, public or private, who wishes to have a gun-free-zone should have to seek a permit from the State and show cause just like they do for any other public hazard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    OK. you've never been to a college party, at spring break, or been in your 20's.
    I try to spend all my free time with my 2 sons. Between class and work, I don't have time for drinking for the sake of drinking.

    Besides, liquor isn't allowed on campus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    This is exactly why you need to make your argument objective instead of "

    Binge drinking shows immaturity of some students

    "Binge drinking is deadly," said Jackie McHargue, dean of students, in an e-mail interview. "Across the country, more than 1,000 students die every year in alcohol related deaths."

    " + artTitle.replace("-","") + " - " + "The Blue Banner" + " - " + "Editorial" + "

    COLUMN: Aussies attribute high drinking age to immaturity

    COLUMN: Aussies attribute high drinking age to immaturity - Iowa State Daily: Opinion
    That's a strong argument for banning alcohol from the campus. At Black Hills State University, we're not allowed to have liquor on the property, not even beer, ever. See, this is why it's erroneous to "assume a certain level of understanding of the world". We don't all have Boo Radley's life experiences. At BHSU, yes there are parties, but not out of control frat parties like you see in a teen movies. That's just hollywood. That's not real.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    And it is true, here I draw on personal experience of working on an ambulence for a decade and seeing people shoot themselves a lot, and I have a ton of stories on the matter. But, I don't think it takes a study to know we don't know, use or work with guns like did once upon a time.
    See, that proves my point against using personal experience again; I don't know the world from the side of a gurney as you do. I know the world from the grip of a hammer.
    In 2007, there were 613 fatal firearm accidents in the United States . . .

    Gun Control

    The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) estimated 52,447 deliberate and 23,237 accidental non-fatal gunshot injuries in the United States during 2000.

    Gun violence in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    You just proved that A. accidents happen, and B. there are stupid people. Toss in alcohol and you have a perfectly safe learning environment, yes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    There is certainly a place for support, links, but it should not replace the ability to reason. Without the ability to reason, a link is meaningless. We all live in this world, and experience is also important to reasoning.
    Of course. Ban liquor, allow the firearm.
    Last edited by Jerry; 02-25-11 at 02:10 PM.

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    Re: Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBook View Post
    Dang, that'll make getting away with murder so, so much easier. Not to mention gun-running.
    I know it can be fun to say things like that, but if you can ever demonstrate how that might actually be fact, please let us know.

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