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Wisconsin Governor to Missing Democrats: Do Your Job

Here is my take on all of this:

1) In a time of budget shortfalls, cuts have to be made, and yes, there is going to be misery.

2) Having said that, unions did have their place at one time. Don't forget that it was unions that got child labor banned. Under unions, living on company property where you paid exorbitant rates for rent, and having a company store that charged twice as much, became extinct. Safety in the workplace? That's unions too. The right to negotiate without being shot down by Pinkertons? Again, unions. The unions did a lot of good things to improve the standard of living for workers.

3) However, once unions got power, their priorities got all screwed up. I can testify to this first hand. While still living in Michigan, I worked at Lear-Siegler, troubleshooting and repairing AYN-1 and DC-130 navigational computers. I was also in the UAW. I had no choice. I was required to join. BTW, the UAW isn't just automobiles. It stands for United Auto, Aerospace, and Agricultural implement Workers. That's a mouthful. LOL. Anyways, one day, I am sitting on my ass because a piece of test equipment that I needed was not at my station. Guess what I did? I went to another station, which was being unused at the time, got what I needed, and proceeded to do my job. I was fined $50.00 for that. Why? Because I was supposed to call a test equipment calibrator to take out the screws holding the piece of test equipment at the other station, then call a lugger, who would bring it to my station. Still, I could not use it until I had called a test equipment calibrator to screw in into my rack. This process can take more than a day. In the meantime, I would just be sitting on my ass. This isn't right, folks.

So, while unions had their day, and I believe that in many situations they still do, they are so screwed up with the bureaucracy and power monkeys that are on their backs. Until they do something about this, then it is no wonder that many Americans dislike them. Still, unions are an important aspect of leveraging workers' abilities in order to gain them a decent living. As Adam Smith once said, resources are there to exploit. This also applies to workers, who can use this same principle to exploit the sweat of their brows. They just need to do it better than they are doing it now. There is only one entity in the world that has become more cumbersome and resource-wasting than unions, and that is

... the Government

In the memory of "The Music Man", sing it with me......

With a capital G that rhymes with B that stands for Bloodsuckers. :mrgreen:
 
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Here is my take on all of this:

1) In a time of budget shortfalls, cuts have to be made, and yes, there is going to be misery.

2) Having said that, unions did have their place at one time. Don't forget that it was unions that got child labor banned. Under unions, living on company property where you paid exorbitant rates for rent, and having a company store that charged twice as much, became extinct. Safety in the workplace? That's unions too. The right to negotiate without being shot down by Pinkertons? Again, unions. The unions did a lot of good things to improve the standard of living for workers.

3) However, once unions got power, their priorities got all screwed up. I can testify to this first hand. While still living in Michigan, I worked at Lear-Siegler, troubleshooting and repairing AYN-1 and DC-130 navigational computers. I was also in the UAW. I had no choice. I was required to join. BTW, the UAW isn't just automobiles. It stands for United Auto, Aerospace, and Agricultural implement Workers. That's a mouthful. LOL. Anyways, one day, I am sitting on my ass because a piece of test equipment that I needed was not at my station. Guess what I did? I went to another station, which was being unused at the time, got what I needed, and proceeded to do my job. I was fined $50.00 for that. Why? Because I was supposed to call a test equipment calibrator to take out the screws holding the piece of test equipment at the other station, then call a lugger, who would bring it to my station. Still, I could not use it until I had called a test equipment calibrator to screw in into my rack. This process can take more than a day. In the meantime, I would just be sitting on my ass. This isn't right, folks.

So, while unions had their day, and I believe that in many situations they still do, they are so screwed up with the bureaucracy and power monkeys that are on their backs. Until they do something about this, then it is no wonder that many Americans dislike them. Still, unions are an important aspect of leveraging workers' abilities in order to gain them a decent living. As Adam Smith once said, resources are there to exploit. This also applies to workers, who can use this same principle to exploit the sweat of their brows. They just need to do it better than they are doing it now. There is only one entity in the world that has become more cumbersome and resource-wasting than unions, and that is

... the Government

In the memory of "The Music Man", sing it with me......

With a capital G that rhymes with B that stands for Bloodsucker. :mrgreen:

We shouldn't forget to put the blame where it belongs: squarely on the shoulders of those bargaining with the unions who gave away the store. Unions can demand. Powers that be can say no. Our legislators sold us out. And now they're going to fix the problem??
 
Here is my take on all of this:

1) In a time of budget shortfalls, cuts have to be made, and yes, there is going to be misery.

2) Having said that, unions did have their place at one time. Don't forget that it was unions that got child labor banned. Under unions, living on company property where you paid exorbitant rates for rent, and having a company store that charged twice as much, became extinct. Safety in the workplace? That's unions too. The right to negotiate without being shot down by Pinkertons? Again, unions. The unions did a lot of good things to improve the standard of living for workers.

3) However, once unions got power, their priorities got all screwed up. I can testify to this first hand. While still living in Michigan, I worked at Lear-Siegler, troubleshooting and repairing AYN-1 and DC-130 navigational computers. I was also in the UAW. I had no choice. I was required to join. BTW, the UAW isn't just automobiles. It stands for United Auto, Aerospace, and Agricultural implement Workers. That's a mouthful. LOL. Anyways, one day, I am sitting on my ass because a piece of test equipment that I needed was not at my station. Guess what I did? I went to another station, which was being unused at the time, got what I needed, and proceeded to do my job. I was fined $50.00 for that. Why? Because I was supposed to call a test equipment calibrator to take out the screws holding the piece of test equipment at the other station, then call a lugger, who would bring it to my station. Still, I could not use it until I had called a test equipment calibrator to screw in into my rack. This process can take more than a day. In the meantime, I would just be sitting on my ass. This isn't right, folks.

So, while unions had their day, and I believe that in many situations they still do, they are so screwed up with the bureaucracy and power monkeys that are on their backs. Until they do something about this, then it is no wonder that many Americans dislike them. Still, unions are an important aspect of leveraging workers' abilities in order to gain them a decent living. As Adam Smith once said, resources are there to exploit. This also applies to workers, who can use this same principle to exploit the sweat of their brows. They just need to do it better than they are doing it now. There is only one entity in the world that has become more cumbersome and resource-wasting than unions, and that is

... the Government

In the memory of "The Music Man", sing it with me......

With a capital G that rhymes with B that stands for Bloodsuckers. :mrgreen:

To do work in Chicago or Boston, my company has to pay a union worker $100 an hour to sit on a bucket and watch us do the work. We can't hire them to actually DO the work, because they won't work for us. But we have to have them there in order to do the work ourselves.

Is this what unions were originally intended for?
 
Face it. The gig is up. Liberalism has failed, much like multiculturalism in Europe.

There is nowhere left to turn, no other vault to steal from. Socialism fails when you run out of other people's money to spend.

Huge cuts are unavoidable now. You've got to make your own way now, not rely on the government teet.

The money's run dry. The national debt is monstrously huge. There is no way out. The gig is up.

Time to suck it up, go to work, and handle things by yourself. I know that hurts.

So you find these cuts to be a necessity. I can only imagine your outrage then, that Walker would keep public safety unions in tact, and in fact, keep them untouched entirely. Unions are killing the Wisconsin economy so off with all their heads yes? (btw, yes is the only answer you can give while not being 100%) hypocritical. I address this question directly to Erod, but would love to have ANY person who supports the bill give an answer as well.
 
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They look like thugs to me....

walker-crosshairs.jpg


wi-hitler4.jpg


I guess they didn't get the memo to tone the rhetoric down.

Why oh why, do we have to CONTINUE to go down this road. It's just terrible logic. Let's find 2 pictures of nutjobs up to support our point, all the while adding nothing of importance to the conversation. You say they are thugs, fine, find a reason, source it and put it here. I understand though that it takes a little longer to find data and facts than going to google images and finding a picture of a couple whack jobs to link an entire party to, but in the end I guarantee it would certainly command more respect from both sides of the aisle.
 
So you find these cuts to be a necessity. I can only imagine your outrage then, that Walker would just to keep public safety unions in tact, and in fact untouched entirely. Unions are killing the Wisconsin economy so off with all their heads yes? (btw, yes is the only answer you can give while not being 100%) hypocritical. I address this question directly to Erod, but would love to have ANY person who supports the bill give an answer as well.

I am for the dissolution of all of today's unions, yes.

Unions served their purposes well once upon a time, but have since entirely lost their way.
 
Why oh why, do we have to CONTINUE to go down this road. It's just terrible logic. Let's find 2 pictures of nutjobs up to support our point, all the while adding nothing of importance to the conversation. You say they are thugs, fine, find a reason, source it and put it here. I understand though that it takes a little longer to find data and facts than going to google images and finding a picture of a couple whack jobs to link an entire party to, but in the end I guarantee it would certainly command more respect from both sides of the aisle.

Great: One of the Most Violent Union Thugs Now Appearing With Thug Teachers in Wisconsin - Publius Forum

MADISON, Wis. (AP) - Police have hand-cuffed a protester at the state Capitol after he apparently tried to charge into the state Assembly.
Police Hand-Cuff Protester in Madison
What else do these people need to do to be labeled thugs....kill someone..oh wait.
 
Here is my take on all of this:

1) In a time of budget shortfalls, cuts have to be made, and yes, there is going to be misery.

2) Having said that, unions did have their place at one time. Don't forget that it was unions that got child labor banned. Under unions, living on company property where you paid exorbitant rates for rent, and having a company store that charged twice as much, became extinct. Safety in the workplace? That's unions too. The right to negotiate without being shot down by Pinkertons? Again, unions. The unions did a lot of good things to improve the standard of living for workers.

3) However, once unions got power, their priorities got all screwed up. I can testify to this first hand. While still living in Michigan, I worked at Lear-Siegler, troubleshooting and repairing AYN-1 and DC-130 navigational computers. I was also in the UAW. I had no choice. I was required to join. BTW, the UAW isn't just automobiles. It stands for United Auto, Aerospace, and Agricultural implement Workers. That's a mouthful. LOL. Anyways, one day, I am sitting on my ass because a piece of test equipment that I needed was not at my station. Guess what I did? I went to another station, which was being unused at the time, got what I needed, and proceeded to do my job. I was fined $50.00 for that. Why? Because I was supposed to call a test equipment calibrator to take out the screws holding the piece of test equipment at the other station, then call a lugger, who would bring it to my station. Still, I could not use it until I had called a test equipment calibrator to screw in into my rack. This process can take more than a day. In the meantime, I would just be sitting on my ass. This isn't right, folks.

So, while unions had their day, and I believe that in many situations they still do, they are so screwed up with the bureaucracy and power monkeys that are on their backs. Until they do something about this, then it is no wonder that many Americans dislike them. Still, unions are an important aspect of leveraging workers' abilities in order to gain them a decent living. As Adam Smith once said, resources are there to exploit. This also applies to workers, who can use this same principle to exploit the sweat of their brows. They just need to do it better than they are doing it now. There is only one entity in the world that has become more cumbersome and resource-wasting than unions, and that is

... the Government

In the memory of "The Music Man", sing it with me......

With a capital G that rhymes with B that stands for Bloodsuckers. :mrgreen:

Same where I work now. Can't carry a box larger than 12x12x12 no matter the weight, as a ticket has to be opened for a union person to come and pick it up with a hand truck. A hydraulic, powered hand truck! I cannot move a table in a conference room (chairs are okay though), as I have to again, open a ticket and have someone hours later, come up and move a table. I cannot change a light bulb. I work in a test lab 50% of the time --- even racking equipment, plugging it in that has to be done by a union represented person who, in my 21 years of experience, doesn't know what the hell they're doing. I had a ticket in to run fiber jumpers to from one end of building to the other with 2 media converters - that ticket was open for 30 days. When I finally complained, the property management guy who retired after 35 years and now just does this part time to keep busy said, the two techs who were supposed to do the work have been playing video games for the past two weeks or have not been available. My ticket was the only ticket open at that time and they just don't give a ****. So the retiree and I, after 5 pm on night, did the work in 2 hours. If I would have gotten caught doing any of these things, I would also get fined and I would be written up and put on an improvement plan as well as take some bs training course on why these rules exist. I used to be a frigging Shop Steward for Christ sakes at the CWA Trenton Local 1000 - it's not like I don't know what's going on.

The BS has to stop.
 
I am for the dissolution of all of today's unions, yes.

Unions served their purposes well once upon a time, but have since entirely lost their way.

Well, we disagree fundamentally but I appreciate your consistency.
My next question builds on the situation at hand: Do you (or anyone) have a problem with the way that it's being approached? Public safety unions, which you oppose, are left out of a VERY controversial bill. This same group as a union supported Walkers election. This screams favoritism to me and proves beyond a doubt that the governor does not truly believe his own rhetoric. If he really thought that collective bargaining were the nail in our fiscal coffin, he would have NO choice but to include these unions.

So, please, tell me if you are ok with the way that the governor is approaching the bill. Do you believe that it is NOT an attack on the unions, but instead an actual way to balance the budget?
 
Same where I work now. Can't carry a box larger than 12x12x12 no matter the weight, as a ticket has to be opened for a union person to come and pick it up with a hand truck. A hydraulic, powered hand truck! I cannot move a table in a conference room (chairs are okay though), as I have to again, open a ticket and have someone hours later, come up and move a table. I cannot change a light bulb. I work in a test lab 50% of the time --- even racking equipment, plugging it in that has to be done by a union represented person who, in my 21 years of experience, doesn't know what the hell they're doing. I had a ticket in to run fiber jumpers to from one end of building to the other with 2 media converters - that ticket was open for 30 days. When I finally complained, the property management guy who retired after 35 years and now just does this part time to keep busy said, the two techs who were supposed to do the work have been playing video games for the past two weeks or have not been available. My ticket was the only ticket open at that time and they just don't give a ****. So the retiree and I, after 5 pm on night, did the work in 2 hours. If I would have gotten caught doing any of these things, I would also get fined and I would be written up and put on an improvement plan as well as take some bs training course on why these rules exist. I used to be a frigging Shop Steward for Christ sakes at the CWA Trenton Local 1000 - it's not like I don't know what's going on.

The BS has to stop.

I agree, the BS does have to stop, but its a bit disingenuous to imply that industry, whose main goal is to earn a profit, is the same as governmental office work or education, which have a MUCH different agenda as a whole.
 
I agree, the BS does have to stop, but its a bit disingenuous to imply that industry, whose main goal is to earn a profit, is the same as governmental office work or education, which have a MUCH different agenda as a whole.

I didn't mean to imply that at all. What I meant to convey was that unions and the insanity around regulations and rules as agreed to in the bargaining agreements, have outlived their usefulness and are now a barrier to success - whether that is in industry or government.
 
I didn't mean to imply that at all. What I meant to convey was that unions and the insanity around regulations and rules as agreed to in the bargaining agreements, have outlived their usefulness and are now a barrier to success - whether that is in industry or government.

No disrespect Ock, that's just what I got out of it. Honestly the problem I see lies much deeper than unions itself. I think the first problem is everyone is so damn sensitive and sue happy that everyone (people and companies) is so damn scared to do what isn't exactly by the book that nothing can get done. It's a problem that plagues healthcare as well. The second problem is that everyone seems to have a real sense of entitlement (see, I have my conservative sides too!) in this country. The main problem I have with this situation, as I've pointed out multiple times, is the blatant favoritism on Walker's part. His rhetoric suggests that collective bargaining has to go and is the nail in our fiscal coffin. His actions however, imply that he doesn't truly believe that, or else public safety unions would be included in this bill as well. If the situation is as dire as the governor makes it out to be, then the time for fiscal conservation has come and ALL must step up to the plate. Until he shares this view, or one similar to it, I see this as an opportunity to bust unions, and nothing else.
 
No disrespect Ock, that's just what I got out of it. Honestly the problem I see lies much deeper than unions itself. I think the first problem is everyone is so damn sensitive and sue happy that everyone (people and companies) is so damn scared to do what isn't exactly by the book that nothing can get done. It's a problem that plagues healthcare as well. The second problem is that everyone seems to have a real sense of entitlement (see, I have my conservative sides too!) in this country. The main problem I have with this situation, as I've pointed out multiple times, is the blatant favoritism on Walker's part. His rhetoric suggests that collective bargaining has to go and is the nail in our fiscal coffin. His actions however, imply that he doesn't truly believe that, or else public safety unions would be included in this bill as well. If the situation is as dire as the governor makes it out to be, then the time for fiscal conservation has come and ALL must step up to the plate. Until he shares this view, or one similar to it, I see this as an opportunity to bust unions, and nothing else.

If he hasn't clearly stated that dire situation, he should and should have already.
 
"sick out"= abhorrent.


Punish the kids. Union jackasses.

Punish the kids my ass. They are all happier than a pig in **** that they don't have to go to school. Also, if school is cancelled (used for snow days primarily), only so many days are allowed to be missed before days have to be made up in the summer, granted that would be a bit of a punishment! So, while I do agree that the teachers do have responsibilities to our children, the children are not going to suffer from missing several days of school. These employees, who for the most part work VERY hard (anyone who thinks otherwise obviously has never spent time in the field of education) are having there livelihoods threatened. I don't blame them for what they did at all. I have family in education in WI and it is a very stressful time. Try to think of it in terms of that, not so much "The teachers don't care about the kids, they are punishing them." All my friends and family who are in Madison right now are there for a very real reason, not to skip out on work.
 
If he hasn't clearly stated that dire situation, he should and should have already.

So I can answer you more effectively what exactly do you mean? What are you saying he should have stated?
 
Punish the kids my ass. They are all happier than a pig in **** that they don't have to go to school. Also, if school is cancelled (used for snow days primarily), only so many days are allowed to be missed before days have to be made up in the summer, granted that would be a bit of a punishment! So, while I do agree that the teachers do have responsibilities to our children, the children are not going to suffer from missing several days of school. These employees, who for the most part work VERY hard (anyone who thinks otherwise obviously has never spent time in the field of education) are having there livelihoods threatened. I don't blame them for what they did at all. I have family in education in WI and it is a very stressful time. Try to think of it in terms of that, not so much "The teachers don't care about the kids, they are punishing them." All my friends and family who are in Madison right now are there for a very real reason, not to skip out on work.

I don't believe their "livelihoods" are being threatened. I think their cushy lifestyles are being reconsidered. They are paid not to work (summertime), vacations, federal holidays...They get paid and have their benefits paid for them..by TAXPAYERS. The US is out of money..which in turns means the STATES are broke. No one can afford to pay these people all these benefits and try to balance a budget. Everyones got to give some to get some.
 
Midlib,

Yes i'm sure the kids are loving it. Thats not my point. Fact is and correct me if i'm wrong these "sick out" teachers will be paid both sick days and extra for the make up days they caused? No?


All of this over having to contribute 5.8% to thier own pension?

Democrats are acting like cowards here and the unions like the taliban. This is anything but the democratic process and simple mob rule attempts..... All while scumbag union bosses and thier loser cronies lose nothing over this whole mess...
 
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So I can answer you more effectively what exactly do you mean? What are you saying he should have stated?

The fiscal situation... and the direness of it.
 
Midlib,

Yes i'm sure the kids are loving it. Thats not my point. Fact is and correct me if i'm wrong these "sick out" teachers will be paid both sick days and extra for the make up days they caused? No?


All of this over having to contribute 5.8% to thier own pension?

Democrats are acting like cowards here and the unions like the taliban. This is anything but the democratic process and simple mob rule attempts..... All while scumbag union bosses and thier loser cronies lose nothing over this whole mess...

Honestly, no, I'm not a fan paying teachers to fake being sick. I do however believe that in any line of work people make up BS reasons not to go to work all the time. This is at least a good reason in my eyes. We aren't going to agree on that plain and simple. The other thing you mention is the teachers having to pay in out of their own pockets 5.8% I would be willing to put a sizeable amount of money on this being over almost immediately if Walker allowed the unions to do this. The problem for many is that this is not an option. This bill dissolves ALL unions and as such makes this a one time negotiation totally in favor or Walker. If collective bargaining were left in place as is, and all that had to happen is an increase in out of pocket spending for benefits and this thing would be over as quickly as it started
 
I don't believe their "livelihoods" are being threatened. I think their cushy lifestyles are being reconsidered. They are paid not to work (summertime), vacations, federal holidays...They get paid and have their benefits paid for them..by TAXPAYERS. The US is out of money..which in turns means the STATES are broke. No one can afford to pay these people all these benefits and try to balance a budget. Everyones got to give some to get some.

Cushy lifestyle? You clearly have never been, lived with, or talked extensively to an educator in Wisconsin. It's true that they are paid not to work during the summertime. It's also equally, if not more, true that educators DON'T get paid for much of the work they do. Ever try to grade 35 advanced composition papers inside of a 40 hour work week?

They get paid by the taxpayer you say. Would you prefer the rate get dropped to minimum wage? That would really help our educational system, which is already flourishing SO much compared to much of the modern world. Should education of our children NOT be a top priority?

You say the states are broke. Again, we agree. But this is a blatant attempt to crush unions, not balance the budget. Unions are willing to pay this increase, just don't take away collective bargaining.

You say everyones got to give some to get some. How then do you explain that public safety unions (police, state troopers, and fire department) are exempt? They certainly are not "giving some"

All in all you seem fairly clueless about the whole situation when there is a plethora of reliable information available moments away.
Hyperbole is seldom truthful.
 
It's a delaying tactic. Nothing more.

It is a delaying tactic, but not a tactic to defer the inevitable. The delay is bringing awareness to the issue. The governor tried to ramrod this through with attention. Now it has attention.... whatever happens after is fair game.
 
Midlib,

Yes i'm sure the kids are loving it. Thats not my point. Fact is and correct me if i'm wrong these "sick out" teachers will be paid both sick days and extra for the make up days they caused? No?


All of this over having to contribute 5.8% to thier own pension?

Democrats are acting like cowards here and the unions like the taliban. This is anything but the democratic process and simple mob rule attempts..... All while scumbag union bosses and thier loser cronies lose nothing over this whole mess...
Midwest Lib has pointed it out already but the crux of the issue with what Governor Walker is doing is not the necessity for members of the teachers union to increase the amount they would pay into their pensions, but rather that he is trying to restrict their collective bargaining rights in future negotiations. In fact the teachers' union was more than willing to reform their pension plans to save Wisconsin from having to layoff teachers. It all goes back to Governor Walker's desire to strip them of their bargaining rights.

Add to it that he has exempted unions such as the police, firefighters, and state troopers, all supporters of his during the past election, and it's looking more and more like political retribution than trying to save the state money. If things were as dire as the governor is claiming, then no union should be excluded during this time. Surely you can agree with that.

As a New Jersey resident I'm sure you can sure answer this. When Governor Christie was battling the problem of state pensions did he move to roll back a union's collective bargaining rights? I have followed what he is doing, very impressive indeed, but to my knowledge he did not take it that far. Please let me know if I'm wrong.
 
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