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Thread: Wisconsin Governor to Missing Democrats: Do Your Job

  1. #551
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    Re: Wisconsin Governor to Missing Democrats: Do Your Job

    look out!

    she's comin down fast!

    ohio is goin farther---end collective bargaining and binding arbitration, institute instead merit pay

    kasich is red hot behind it

    "ohio democrat lawmakers are currently powerless and a walk out would not stall legislation"

    read: stall

    this movement is gonna spread to almost every state in the nation

    and the bargainings have already been broadly collectivized

    huge reductions in pensions, huge increases in payin's towards health care and retirement, a general reduction of political pull

    our unions today are in disgrace

    just how far it will go in states like indiana and california remains to be seen

    but that it WILL go doesn't

    it's a sign of the times

    RealClearPolitics - Video - Union Unrest Spreads: Ohio Unions Now Protesting In Capital

    RealClearPolitics - Union Disputes Spread to Indiana, Ohio

    she may be a lover but she aint no dancer

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    Re: Wisconsin Governor to Missing Democrats: Do Your Job

    a union engaged in collective bargaining with any agency of the government is NOT analogous to the same negotiating similarly with a private enterprise

    hello

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    Re: Wisconsin Governor to Missing Democrats: Do Your Job

    Quote Originally Posted by dontworrybehappy
    Corrected for a grammatical error that really throws off your point.
    LOL. . . .Thanks, don't know what happened there, I really do know the difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by dontworrybehappy
    You're not going to get much sympathy out of private sector employees making half as much and paying 4 times as much into their pensions.
    I'm not so sure about that statement. I've read many articles about public vs private and have seen many different conclusions, depending on were the author sits. Most of it is based on raw numbers and don't take into consideration factors such as education level and experience.
    “We just simply don’t know how to govern” - Rep. Steve Womack (R-AR) a member of the House Budget Committee

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    Re: Wisconsin Governor to Missing Democrats: Do Your Job

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    a union engaged in collective bargaining with any agency of the government is NOT analogous to the same negotiating similarly with a private enterprise

    hello
    Says who?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Wisconsin Governor to Missing Democrats: Do Your Job

    you have to ask?

    LOL!

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    Re: Wisconsin Governor to Missing Democrats: Do Your Job

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach
    BWG, that describes life in general. It describes every aspect of the free market.
    Doesn't mean taking a pay cut isn't a bad thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach
    Why should public teachers be insulated by taxpayers from this reality?
    Where are they insulated? I've shown many instances of public unions taking cuts, paying more into their health and pension funds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach
    Where is the innovation in teaching? Why do teachers seem to be getting more and more advanced degrees to teach high school kids? Because they tie salary to them in their pay structure. In the real world you get paid by job duties and performance typically...not simply a degree. Sure fire way to get laughed in the real world, put on your job application you're a genius. It's a clear indicator someone is an idiot.
    Teachers don't make education policy. They may 'seem' to get more advanced degrees for many reasons. Most of those that I know simply want to learn more in order to pass that on to their students. I don't know of any teacher that thinks they are a genius.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach
    Why do they have such extraordinary job stability and how much is that worth? We call that risk-reward. Where is the public sector "risk"? How much does this cost, how much is it worth?
    Job stability? Probably because students (in increasing numbers) keep showing up at the door every year. Not sure what you're getting at here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach
    What about these pensions that pay out $50K-$100K per year...these are valued at something like $1.5-$4M dollars. It's like hitting the jackpot.
    I've been involved with 3 generations of teachers - that includes their friends who are mostly teachers - and none of them (save administrators) have a pension pay out such as that. By the way, $50k-$100k is a rather large range.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach
    Health care has evolved to have Doctors, PAs, RNs, Urgent Care, etc. Your average medical care is achieved by LESS education. Where is this downard pressure in teaching? It's reversed (!).
    You want a babysitter or a teacher?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach
    What about a typical corporate ladder. Yeah, you may start answering phones or working the mail room, but as you're trusted you take on more and more responsibility and rise up in the company based on your skill, work ethic, etc. You get paid more for the new job role, not just because you've been there a while. So why is someone teaching high school for 30 years, essentially the same material over and over, expecting to have a steadily climbing salary? If they love it, fine...but you don't need more and more money for that job because we can just hire someone less expensive who needs the money. The teacher needs to move on. 10 years, either enjoy your 3% raise, or get a new job.
    A teacher's corporate ladder is principal on up to school administrator. That requires advanced degrees that demands more pay (just like the private sector). Some don't want to pay for that expertise. There's always going to be more worker bees than queens. Just like the private sector, teachers accept that fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach
    It's not meant out of personal spite. I have family and friends that teach, I know who they are and what they do, and what they make. But anyone who has experience in our marketplace, the engine that pays these people, sees obvious fundamental issues with how it operates. It's natural to want to fight for a sweetheart deal, that's why the innovation of the U.S. form of government *was* such a huge positive change in the world. It took that sweetheart deals away from those who didn't earn them (the nobles, ruling party, etc.)
    Teacher educate our children, not turn out as many widgets as possible at the lowest cost possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach
    Staying at one job for 30 years with millions of value in pension and good overall salary and health insurance on top of that, is not "struggling". Until you compete in the marketplace, the idea of "struggle" doesn't really enter into the picture. It's scary to let go, but if teachers are as skilled and educated as they claim, surely they will have no issue competing with the rest of us idiots.
    Millions. .LOL

    Here's a comparison of teachers in six states (in 2002) with a salary of approximately $50,000. Their pension, at 30 years service and 60 years of age

    TEACHER RETIREMENT COMPARISONS, is approximately $30,000.
    “We just simply don’t know how to govern” - Rep. Steve Womack (R-AR) a member of the House Budget Committee

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    Re: Wisconsin Governor to Missing Democrats: Do Your Job

    meanwhile, adults are probably more interested in what TWO POINT FIVE TRILLION DOLLARS of unfunded trust does to the MUNI MARKET

    and what a collapse of the bonds market will do to the STATES' ability, or in-, to continue to FINANCE all this DEBT

    The last three months have not been pretty in the municipal bond market. Spooked by predictions of government bankruptcies and defaults, investors — especially those in big mutual funds — have fled the field, selling off $20 billion worth of state and local bonds in the process. The exodus, in turn, has left states that need to borrow wary. The number of new offerings from state and local governments is down to a level not seen in 11 years.
    Decline in bond market has states nervous
    Last edited by The Prof; 02-22-11 at 08:45 PM.

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    Re: Wisconsin Governor to Missing Democrats: Do Your Job

    Quote Originally Posted by BWG View Post
    Doesn't mean taking a pay cut isn't a bad thing.


    Where are they insulated? I've shown many instances of public unions taking cuts, paying more into their health and pension funds.


    Teachers don't make education policy. They may 'seem' to get more advanced degrees for many reasons. Most of those that I know simply want to learn more in order to pass that on to their students. I don't know of any teacher that thinks they are a genius.


    Job stability? Probably because students (in increasing numbers) keep showing up at the door every year. Not sure what you're getting at here.


    I've been involved with 3 generations of teachers - that includes their friends who are mostly teachers - and none of them (save administrators) have a pension pay out such as that. By the way, $50k-$100k is a rather large range.


    You want a babysitter or a teacher?


    A teacher's corporate ladder is principal on up to school administrator. That requires advanced degrees that demands more pay (just like the private sector). Some don't want to pay for that expertise. There's always going to be more worker bees than queens. Just like the private sector, teachers accept that fact.


    Teacher educate our children, not turn out as many widgets as possible at the lowest cost possible.


    Millions. .LOL

    Here's a comparison of teachers in six states (in 2002) with a salary of approximately $50,000. Their pension, at 30 years service and 60 years of age

    TEACHER RETIREMENT COMPARISONS, is approximately $30,000.
    Who did the numbers? I call baloney. Even at that, however, $30,000 adjusted from 2002 to 2010 dollars is $35,000. It may come as a total shock to you (who has been involved with three generations of teachers and is out of touch with private sector reality), but:

    ...Eleven million private-sector retirees covered by traditional pensions got $7,692.
    Pension gap divides public and private workers - USATODAY.com

    The U.S. government has a bigger unfunded liability for military and civil servant retirement benefits ($4.7 trillion) than it does for Social Security ($4.6 trillion).
    Join the real world.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: Wisconsin Governor to Missing Democrats: Do Your Job

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    "Public employees have agreed to Governor Walker’s pension and health care concessions, which he says will solve the budget challenge. But Governor Walker’s bill goes too far and he has chosen polarizing rhetoric," she said.

    Wisconsin Education Association Council
    Ohh! I get it now. The unions have agreed to make concessions in their contributions to health coverage and pensions by increasing them...a good thing. Then why are their demonRATic legislators across state lines in motels refusing to show up for duty. A decidedly bad thing! And this WEAC broad Mary Bell now says that she and they are pissed-off (a union term, excuse me) because the bill goes too far. I'm assuming that the concession about collective bargaining rights though you failed to elaborate, but I don't mind helping you out is her "too far" complaint. It's that nasty old "polarizing rhetoric" raising it's ugly head, huh! What else would you expect from the person who "represents approximately 98,000 public education employees"? Not exactly a neutral source to go to Boo.

    Did you know Boo that olde Wisconsin is the heart of progressive liberalism. They really took off back in the 70s after they had a baaaaad experience with SCOTUS. I think the social democrats got a foothold there was what happened. You see Boo there was this small town named Hortonville. The case was called Hortonville Joint School Ditrict 1 v. Hortonville Educational Assn. What happened was a battle over due process and the 14th Amendment to the Constitution. You see the darn teachers tried to sue the school board whose duty it was to be involved in the labor negotiations. They alleged that they were fired by the board when they went out on strike and their right to due process was violated, because the board was bias simply because they negotiated in the pubic interset wth them. Hell Boo, that don't hold no water, huh! The Wisconsin Supreme Court agreed with the teachers and found in their favor You can imagine how jacked up they were. It didn't last long though and on certiorari it went to SCOTUS. SCOTUS reversed the Wisconsin Supreme Court (OUCH!) and said that a school board exercising it's sworn duties in this instance is "assumed to be" an impartial arbiter unless bias could be shown and bias was not able to be shown. That little experience in The Court of Nine in juris prudence put the teachers out on the balls of their rear-ends and set the stage for the progressivism in public unions in Wisconsin and elsewhere. LIberal emotion in all this is a waste, because in the end, after all the enmity and opinion has been discharged this will come down to a legal decision. The union leadership best start reading up on IMPORTANT and RELATED precedential cases like this or they will be in deep-doo-doo. The similarity legally here is that the Guv can be depicted as equivalent to the school board in power and responsibility in the "public domain"..Got it? Legally at this point the unions have shown "bad faith" in doing what they've done compounded by the possible collusion and fraud of the "sick notes" incidents all well-documented. There can be no "due process" claim validated here. The unions, in my opinion, have paddled up ****'s Creek and fell asleep while their oars have slipped into the water and drifted away with the tide. And we conservatives campin' over on the right shore of the Creek are bye-bye!
    "Ignorance confuses. Knowledge mediates. Truth resolves." (doctorhugo)

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    Re: Wisconsin Governor to Missing Democrats: Do Your Job

    Quote Originally Posted by doctorhugo View Post
    Ohh! I get it now. The unions have agreed to make concessions in their contributions to health coverage and pensions by increasing them...a good thing. Then why are their demonRATic legislators across state lines in motels refusing to show up for duty.
    Yes, the source can state what they agree to. We also have the govenor's words as well, who stated clearlythat even if the union agreed to everything he wanted, he still bust up the union. But don't let his words sway you as he too is a biased source.

    Now as for the rest, so? I'm fine with the law being the law. The courts will do their duty and if we disagree, we go back and reargue, always trying to make a better case. that's how it works.

    As for unions, imperfect institutions, can you recall your history. What were working conditions like before unions? I would not be too egar to return to a time in which workers have less voice. Why conservatives tend to defend the wealthy and demonize the worker I don't understand. how they can do this and keep any votes from workers is even less understandable. But remember, things tend to swing back and forth, and otfen the worse thing that happen is to get what you ask for.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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