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Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

Come now, I've taken you to task on this issue many times already, so stop bringing it up. Furthermore, you're probably right that the scale is too large for private industry, and that's probably because much of the system is unprofitable. Do you really think that all of the roads that we have built were completely necessary? What about a lack of roads in areas that should have more?

Partly because something like the interstate is not a profitable thing, yes. That is one reason why it is out of reach of private industry. You have not taken me to task on the issue, I have addressed everything you tried to bring up and explained why in the modern world it will not work. The government, on the other hand, doesn't need to be profitable to survive. Which is why it can do a lot of this on the scale at which it does it. Private industry just cannot do something that expensive, that large, and that time consuming that even if they could get profits from it; it would require years and decades to see it.

Because of government subsidized competition! Don't lie and say it's because they can't raise the capital when you know it is because government has its hand in driving and transit. There is no room for private companies to compete since the users of their transportation would still have to pay for public transportation regardless.

Government does subsidize quite a bit. I would like to see the rail go up, and the transportation subsidies go away. However, what I said still remains true. To get to a working product would take a tremendous amount of money, which maybe on occassion some companies can raise billions, but they would need closer to that "trillions" to do it. The scale is huge. There are no more robber barrens, monopolies have been crushed. Now with the emergence of oligopoly, it may be possible but they usually have their hands in other cookie jars. The time necessary to complete the product to the point at which you have a workable system is too long. The amount of time necessary to be in production with the released consumer product in order to recover the initial investments is too long. Business cannot exist in a non-profitable state for the amount of time necessary to create a true national, high speed rail system. That's the plain old truth.

There are just some things the private sector cannot do.
 
Partly because something like the interstate is not a profitable thing, yes.

And how exactly did you divine that fact? I know of no way to tell whether an interstate is profitable or not because there is no way to do economic calculation. That is the heart of the problem. People aren't directly paying for the product and we have no way of telling what the external benefits are. A private company would have people pay directly for the road and would internalize any externalities they create. We would easily be able to tell whether or not such a project is profitable. Can't do it with government. Surely roads would be profitable if run by private companies, but not with our current framework of subsidized alternatives.

That is one reason why it is out of reach of private industry. You have not taken me to task on the issue, I have addressed everything you tried to bring up and explained why in the modern world it will not work. The government, on the other hand, doesn't need to be profitable to survive. Which is why it can do a lot of this on the scale at which it does it. Private industry just cannot do something that expensive, that large, and that time consuming that even if they could get profits from it; it would require years and decades to see it.

How long does it take for an oil company to receive a profit on the drilling it does. I can take 30 years for an offshore oil platform to start producing, yet oil companies do it anyway, don't they? How long does it take for a skyscraper to become profitable? How long does it take for a typical mortgage to become profitable! Yet it happens all the time. People take huge losses at the present for gains in the future. To deny this fact is to deny reality.

Government does subsidize quite a bit. I would like to see the rail go up, and the transportation subsidies go away. However, what I said still remains true. To get to a working product would take a tremendous amount of money, which maybe on occassion some companies can raise billions, but they would need closer to that "trillions" to do it. The scale is huge.

No one has been proposing that one company would build an entire national system. There would be a mosaic built by many smaller companies each contributing their part to a national system (most likely).

There are no more robber barrens, monopolies have been crushed. Now with the emergence of oligopoly, it may be possible but they usually have their hands in other cookie jars. The time necessary to complete the product to the point at which you have a workable system is too long. The amount of time necessary to be in production with the released consumer product in order to recover the initial investments is too long. Business cannot exist in a non-profitable state for the amount of time necessary to create a true national, high speed rail system. That's the plain old truth.

Again, oil companies and financiers do this all the time. Why are you conveniently ignoring them?
 
And how exactly did you divine that fact? I know of no way to tell whether an interstate is profitable or not because there is no way to do economic calculation. That is the heart of the problem. People aren't directly paying for the product and we have no way of telling what the external benefits are. A private company

Exactly. The question is not whether high speed rail would be profitable in a true free market. It probably would, but there is no way to prove this fact.

What is provable is the fact that we do not live in a free market, we live in a market corrupted by corporate coercion, and to a lesser extent government coercion. The fact is that something like high speed rail is necessary to break the corporatist strangle hold of the economy.
 
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Exactly. The question is not whether high speed rail would be profitable in a true free market. It probably would, but there is no way to prove this fact.

I like this.

What is provable is the fact that we do not live in a free market, we live in a market corrupted by corporate coercion, and to a lesser extent government coercion.

And I like this.

The fact is that something like high speed rail is necessary to break the corporatist strangle hold of the economy.

But then you did this. How does allowing government even more influence over the economy "break the corporatist strangle hold of the economy"? Just because the results are more desirable as you see them does not mean that government control has weakened.
 
But then you did this. How does allowing government even more influence over the economy "break the corporatist strangle hold of the economy"? Just because the results are more desirable as you see them does not mean that government control has weakened.

It's the lesser of two evils. Either transportation will be dominated by the corporatist oil cartel or it will be dominated by government. At least the people have a controlling stake in the government. If you see a way in for the free market I'm all ears, but otherwise those are the only options I see.
 
It's the lesser of two evils. Either transportation will be dominated by the corporatist oil cartel or it will be dominated by government. If you see a way in for the free market I'm all ears, but otherwise those are the only options I see.

Simple. Don't support any expansion of government in transportation in any way. If a road widening project is proposed, oppose it. New exit on the freeway; oppose it. New freeway; oppose it. Only support those things that would tend toward a more free market in transportation. If there is a proposal to congestion price a roads; support it. A proposal to to set market rates for transit; support it. But at the same time, don't support social engineering schemes such as allowing the poor to get discounts for transits or subsidized car loans for low-income earners. We have to support anything and everything in the direction of our ultimate goal, otherwise we essentially cast our vote in support of this corrupt, interventionist system that we currently have.
 
A true, national high speed rail would be well worth the investment of money in addition to providing many jobs to see people through the economic turndown. I mean, that's if you care about the average American instead of sending the billions upon billions of dollars to bailouts of the banks and CEOs who made the mess.

Forget about the mess. Those CEOs have millions in personal wealth. Even though they sent their company into the crapper. What I want to know is how who someone failed at running a business gets bailed out and manages to keep millions for himself after everything.
 
Forget about the mess. Those CEOs have millions in personal wealth. Even though they sent their company into the crapper. What I want to know is how who someone failed at running a business gets bailed out and manages to keep millions for himself after everything.

Because of special favors from his government buddies.
 
Simple. Don't support any expansion of government in transportation in any way.

I salute your idealism, but this is effectively giving way to the corporatists. Perhaps you're making some sort of "devil that you know" argument?

If a road widening project is proposed, oppose it. New exit on the freeway; oppose it. New freeway; oppose it. Only support those things that would tend toward a more free market in transportation.

There is no such thing. Right now the situation is totally either/or. Unless we're talking about bicycles, your only ways of getting around are going to need fuel derived from oil. So the real question is, do we want to favor inefficient modes transportation that benefit the oil cartels, or do we want efficient transportation provided by government that benefits the economy and the environment?

If there is a proposal to congestion price a roads; support it. A proposal to to set market rates for transit; support it.

How are these any more "free market" solutions than the previous things you mentioned? Don't be deceived by the mere fact that there is a market in play, unless the market is truly free it doesn't matter if the prices are determined by the "market" or not, because ultimately we're talking about a illegitimate, coercive market.

Simple. Don't support any expansion of government in transportation in any way.

I salute you idealism, but this is effectively giving way to the corporatists. Perhaps you're making some sort of "devil that you know" argument?

If a road widening project is proposed, oppose it. New exit on the freeway; oppose it. New freeway; oppose it. Only support those things that would tend toward a more free market in transportation.

There is no such thing. Right now the situation is totally either/or. Unless we're talking about bicycles, your only ways of getting around are going to need fuel derived from oil. So the real question is, do we want to favor inefficient modes transportation that benefit the oil cartels, or do we want efficient transportation provided by government that benefits the economy and the environment?

But at the same time, don't support social engineering schemes such as allowing the poor to get discounts for transits or subsidized car loans for low-income earners.

Again, this is no more a "social engineering scheme" than charging commuters for peak congestion hours on public roads. But, while a congestion charge favors wealthy commuters who can afford it, subsidized loans favor low income earners. I'd be more inclined to the latter, myself, but neither is a free market solution. Don't kid yourself.

Simple. Don't support any expansion of government in transportation in any way.

I salute you idealism, but this is effectively giving way to the corporatists. Perhaps you're making some sort of "devil that you know" argument?

If a road widening project is proposed, oppose it. New exit on the freeway; oppose it. New freeway; oppose it. Only support those things that would tend toward a more free market in transportation.

There is no such thing. Right now the situation is totally either/or. Unless we're talking about bicycles, your only ways of getting around are going to need fuel derived from oil. So the real question is, do we want to favor inefficient modes transportation that benefit the oil cartels, or do we want efficient transportation provided by government that benefits the economy and the environment?

We have to support anything and everything in the direction of our ultimate goal, otherwise we essentially cast our vote in support of this corrupt, interventionist system that we currently have.

That's just it. There is nothing moving in the direction of our ultimate goal. Once you realize that you'll have a much clearer view of the world.
 
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And how exactly did you divine that fact? I know of no way to tell whether an interstate is profitable or not because there is no way to do economic calculation. That is the heart of the problem. People aren't directly paying for the product and we have no way of telling what the external benefits are. A private company would have people pay directly for the road and would internalize any externalities they create. We would easily be able to tell whether or not such a project is profitable. Can't do it with government. Surely roads would be profitable if run by private companies, but not with our current framework of subsidized alternatives.

It really depends on travel and cost. Some roads can be profitable, some wouldn't be. Just because a road isn't profitable doesn't necessarily mean it shouldn't exist. There are plenty of reasons for having a very sophistocated and expansive structure. A private company folds, what happens to the road? Gets sold off, falls into disrepair, there are lots of negatives from having private companies own something like the roads. It's like the post office, it doesn't have to turn a profit; it just needs to be there. Because private business is subject to many varying winds and circumstance, the government is more robust. I understand the appeal of thinking that roads should be privatized; but I don't agree. There are far too many concerns which go along with it. Once something is established, then yes it becomes easier. For instance, private companies can buy sections of roads. But the initial backbone, the initial structure had to be conquered through the use of government first.

How long does it take for an oil company to receive a profit on the drilling it does. I can take 30 years for an offshore oil platform to start producing, yet oil companies do it anyway, don't they? How long does it take for a skyscraper to become profitable? How long does it take for a typical mortgage to become profitable! Yet it happens all the time. People take huge losses at the present for gains in the future. To deny this fact is to deny reality.

There's a lot of money which goes into prospecting for oil. That's why YOU can't just get up, get a loan, and go out and do it. There are already established oligopoly which exists now, and the barrier to entry is exceedingly high. These companies also share a lot of government protections, subsidizes, and privilege. Hell, there was supposed to be oversight which turned out to be cocain and hookers. Oil companies are not really a good example because they are heavily funded and supported through various government means. In fact, there are a couple whom own large hunks of land they are sitting on. And while they are sitting on it, they're making bank from the government by not farming it. They're just sitting around until it's profitable to mine the land for minerals.

No one has been proposing that one company would build an entire national system. There would be a mosaic built by many smaller companies each contributing their part to a national system (most likely).

So will there be standards then? Or is each company going to make their own sets of rules? Where are they getting all the money from? You can bet your bottom dollar a good portion isn't going to be just loans from banks, etc. The government is going to be there, funding away as well. What about land concerns? That can be incredibly expensive without the power of Emminent Domain.

No, the best thing is to create it all in a single plan. While plenty of private industry will be brought in to construct it; an overall plan with rules and regulations set for the transportation means is well better than breaking it down in completely different companies. High speed rail isn't something which is highly benefitial going 20 miles. It's benefit really comes in on longer trips. Which is why you want to hook up cities, particularly across State lines. That's the government's business right there.

Again, oil companies and financiers do this all the time. Why are you conveniently ignoring them?

They do it because A) They are founded. It's easier to do something once something exists. It was pretty easy early on to break into oil (once the monopolies had been dealt with), and before when there was proper oversight and regulation to prevent oligopoly. Now there are only a handful of companies out there, and they are established and the oligopoly in place has created a barrier to entry to ensure that they are the only ones around. They recieve tons of money from government, and they are pumping oil which is hella profitable. Saudi Arabia, for instance, pulls oil out of the ground for about 5 bucks a barrel, and what's the going rate these days? Oil is known to be profitable. Which right there is the major difference between giving money to oil companies whom you know will turn a profit or funding a high speed rail to which you have no idea what the return will be. People need oil, it has to be found, it's exceedingly profitable, there are only a handful of companies with the resources and capability of doing it. And that's why they can "do it all the time".

Thus your appeal to oil is no applicable to high speed rail since the conditions are wildly different.
 
Forget about the mess. Those CEOs have millions in personal wealth. Even though they sent their company into the crapper. What I want to know is how who someone failed at running a business gets bailed out and manages to keep millions for himself after everything.

phattonez has the right of it here. It's because these are the people who really have the ear of Congress. It is not We the People, but the new aristocracy. The new elite class, the uber rich; they are who Congress ALWAYS works for. Look at what comes out, look at what government really does; past its words to its actions. They are insistent on giving hand outs and appealing to only a certain sector of folk, the aristocrats. It's always the same group of folk, the same companies, etc. It's a bit sickening if you ask me.

And let's face it, this bit with Obama and the high speed rail. As much as I'd like to see it done and I think particularly in this time of economic downturn we can use government to build something and get jobs; it was nothing but talk. The rail system will never see the light of day and I doubt Obama had any interest in pushing it. It was nothing but words to make it seem like they care or they have a plan. But push comes to shove, they don't do ****.
 
phattonez has the right of it here. It's because these are the people who really have the ear of Congress. It is not We the People, but the new aristocracy. The new elite class, the uber rich; they are who Congress ALWAYS works for. Look at what comes out, look at what government really does; past its words to its actions. They are insistent on giving hand outs and appealing to only a certain sector of folk, the aristocrats. It's always the same group of folk, the same companies, etc. It's a bit sickening if you ask me.

The Romans under Augustus thought they lived in a Republic, too, because he kept up the trapping of the Senate and always went through the proper political motions rather than directly enforce his will. But when we look back on that time we see it today as the beginning of the Roman Empire. I suspect something similar is happening today; we have the theater a republic but it's all just the corporatists going through the motions. And future historians will see our government for the corporatist oligarchy it truly is.
 
Are you talking about conscrption during the Rev War?

He's talking about a constitutionally authorized power that we all agree on.
 
It's the lesser of two evils. Either transportation will be dominated by the corporatist oil cartel or it will be dominated by government. At least the people have a controlling stake in the government. If you see a way in for the free market I'm all ears, but otherwise those are the only options I see.

There is a huge difference between government coercion and corporate coercion; that being the government can coerce you with a gun.
 
It really depends on travel and cost. Some roads can be profitable, some wouldn't be. Just because a road isn't profitable doesn't necessarily mean it shouldn't exist. There are plenty of reasons for having a very sophistocated and expansive structure. A private company folds, what happens to the road? Gets sold off, falls into disrepair, there are lots of negatives from having private companies own something like the roads. It's like the post office, it doesn't have to turn a profit; it just needs to be there. Because private business is subject to many varying winds and circumstance, the government is more robust. I understand the appeal of thinking that roads should be privatized; but I don't agree. There are far too many concerns which go along with it. Once something is established, then yes it becomes easier. For instance, private companies can buy sections of roads. But the initial backbone, the initial structure had to be conquered through the use of government first.

If a road isn't profitable then why should it exist? How can you measure the standard by which it exists? Remember that companies tend to interlalize the externalities that they create.

There's a lot of money which goes into prospecting for oil. That's why YOU can't just get up, get a loan, and go out and do it. There are already established oligopoly which exists now, and the barrier to entry is exceedingly high. These companies also share a lot of government protections, subsidizes, and privilege. Hell, there was supposed to be oversight which turned out to be cocain and hookers. Oil companies are not really a good example because they are heavily funded and supported through various government means. In fact, there are a couple whom own large hunks of land they are sitting on. And while they are sitting on it, they're making bank from the government by not farming it. They're just sitting around until it's profitable to mine the land for minerals.

Many oil companies are tightly controlled, but are you telling me that in this world there would be no drilling for oil if not for government?

So will there be standards then? Or is each company going to make their own sets of rules?

Each company will set their own rules, but you would probably see a standard set of rules develop. After all, no one tell technology companies what should be compatible, but the system developed endogoenously so that PCI, USB, firewire, and other standards developed.

Where are they getting all the money from? You can bet your bottom dollar a good portion isn't going to be just loans from banks, etc. The government is going to be there, funding away as well. What about land concerns? That can be incredibly expensive without the power of Emminent Domain.

It can be, so you can either acquire the land or find a way around it. Eminent domain creates a huge loss for those affected by it. And companies know how to raise capital, they've done it before and they'll do it again. Look up the Great Northern Railroad.

No, the best thing is to create it all in a single plan. While plenty of private industry will be brought in to construct it; an overall plan with rules and regulations set for the transportation means is well better than breaking it down in completely different companies. High speed rail isn't something which is highly benefitial going 20 miles. It's benefit really comes in on longer trips. Which is why you want to hook up cities, particularly across State lines. That's the government's business right there.

There's no such thing as spontaneous order?

They do it because A) They are founded. It's easier to do something once something exists. It was pretty easy early on to break into oil (once the monopolies had been dealt with), and before when there was proper oversight and regulation to prevent oligopoly. Now there are only a handful of companies out there, and they are established and the oligopoly in place has created a barrier to entry to ensure that they are the only ones around. They recieve tons of money from government, and they are pumping oil which is hella profitable. Saudi Arabia, for instance, pulls oil out of the ground for about 5 bucks a barrel, and what's the going rate these days? Oil is known to be profitable. Which right there is the major difference between giving money to oil companies whom you know will turn a profit or funding a high speed rail to which you have no idea what the return will be. People need oil, it has to be found, it's exceedingly profitable, there are only a handful of companies with the resources and capability of doing it. And that's why they can "do it all the time".

Thus your appeal to oil is no applicable to high speed rail since the conditions are wildly different.

Why would it have to be a brand new company building the roads? Couldn't a company with access to a lot of capital start building roads? I see no reason why they couldn't. So the appeal to oil is applicable.
 
I salute you idealism, but this is effectively giving way to the corporatists. Perhaps you're making some sort of "devil that you know" argument?

Support for corporatism is support for corporatism.

There is no such thing. Right now the situation is totally either/or. Unless we're talking about bicycles, your only ways of getting around are going to need fuel derived from oil. So the real question is, do we want to favor inefficient modes transportation that benefit the oil cartels, or do we want efficient transportation provided by government that benefits the economy and the environment?

I can't support any government-backed proposals. It's like asking is it better to shoot the newborn baby or the old man. Sure, shooting the old man is probably less reprehensible, but that doesn't make it good either. The answer has to be that I can't support either action.

Again, this is no more a "social engineering scheme" than charging commuters for peak congestion hours on public roads. But, while a congestion charge favors wealthy commuters who can afford it, subsidized loans favor low income earners. I'd be more inclined to the latter, myself, but neither is a free market solution. Don't kid yourself.

Congestion charge favors wealthy commuters who can afford it? This is most likely how roads would be run. Is it fair that the rich can get more food than the poor? Is it fair that the rich can go on vacations but the poor can't? I realize that government running it isn't the best, but at least it tends toward the free market direction.

That's just it. There is nothing moving in the direction of our ultimate goal. Once you realize that you'll have a much clearer view of the world.

Selling off roads piecemeal is moving in the direction of that ultimate goal. Expanding government ownership is the opposite direction.
 
If a road isn't profitable then why should it exist? How can you measure the standard by which it exists? Remember that companies tend to interlalize the externalities that they create.

Because roads are useful and can open up many other means of commerce along with personal travel. But the creation, construction, and upkeep of something on the level of our interstate system is extremely immense and thus government is best able to provide for it.

Many oil companies are tightly controlled, but are you telling me that in this world there would be no drilling for oil if not for government?

Not the way it is done now, no. Costs are too high to jump in, too many rules to prevent proper competition; that's why other companies don't come into existence in the field. It's occupied by oligopoly already in place. You could not make a fresh start oil drilling and refining company because there is no way for you to be profitable on the time scale necessary to survive as a company.

Each company will set their own rules, but you would probably see a standard set of rules develop. After all, no one tell technology companies what should be compatible, but the system developed endogoenously so that PCI, USB, firewire, and other standards developed.

There would have to be oversight and standardization; and that would most likely have to be done through the government.

It can be, so you can either acquire the land or find a way around it. Eminent domain creates a huge loss for those affected by it. And companies know how to raise capital, they've done it before and they'll do it again. Look up the Great Northern Railroad.

Companies can, but where does that money come from? It's not all private banks (which are all backed by the government anyway). Additionally, the great western expansion in which many private companies laid rail through the West cannot happen anymore. Not only are the robber barrens gone, but we also have well more labor and environmental laws to contend with today.

There's no such thing as spontaneous order?

I'm not quite sure I understand this part.

Why would it have to be a brand new company building the roads? Couldn't a company with access to a lot of capital start building roads? I see no reason why they couldn't. So the appeal to oil is applicable.

It could, but that company would have to be able to shoulder the profit loss over the time frame necessary to complete and consumer product. Given the scale of national high speed rail, that time frame, the amount of money necessary, the man hours at stake are all to large. Oil companies get tons of money from the government, a lot of subsidies and other benefits. It's not like they're doing this all in the private sector. The government supports them, and any company which could conceivably conquer the national high speed rail problem would be no different. Because it would take government to float them long enough to turn a profit, which could be 10's of years.
 
Because roads are useful and can open up many other means of commerce along with personal travel. But the creation, construction, and upkeep of something on the level of our interstate system is extremely immense and thus government is best able to provide for it.

Doesn't logically follow. Try again.

Not the way it is done now, no. Costs are too high to jump in, too many rules to prevent proper competition; that's why other companies don't come into existence in the field. It's occupied by oligopoly already in place. You could not make a fresh start oil drilling and refining company because there is no way for you to be profitable on the time scale necessary to survive as a company.

How did the auto companies ever start with the huge startup costs associated with an automanufacturing plant? I wonder how long it takes for those things to become profitable.

There would have to be oversight and standardization; and that would most likely have to be done through the government.

Way to go! You just completely ignored the standardization that has come about in technology without any government control. Congratulations!

Companies can, but where does that money come from? It's not all private banks (which are all backed by the government anyway). Additionally, the great western expansion in which many private companies laid rail through the West cannot happen anymore. Not only are the robber barrens gone, but we also have well more labor and environmental laws to contend with today.

We have more capital than we had back then, way more. Are you seriously arguing that we can't build projects today at the scale at which they were built in the 1800s? That's nonsense and you know it.

I'm not quite sure I understand this part.

A national system can be developed by many smaller individual systems. Spontaneous order.

It could, but that company would have to be able to shoulder the profit loss over the time frame necessary to complete and consumer product. Given the scale of national high speed rail, that time frame, the amount of money necessary, the man hours at stake are all to large. Oil companies get tons of money from the government, a lot of subsidies and other benefits. It's not like they're doing this all in the private sector. The government supports them, and any company which could conceivably conquer the national high speed rail problem would be no different. Because it would take government to float them long enough to turn a profit, which could be 10's of years.

How did the auto companies ever start with the huge startup costs associated with an automanufacturing plant? I wonder how long it takes for those things to become profitable.
 
Support for corporatism is support for corporatism.

Exactly. You understand the principle but you are misunderstanding the application. Keep that in mind as you read my response to this post:

I can't support any government-backed proposals. It's like asking is it better to shoot the newborn baby or the old man. Sure, shooting the old man is probably less reprehensible, but that doesn't make it good either. The answer has to be that I can't support either action.

Thats unfortunate, because "neither" isn't an option. Forget you shooting them, that's a false analogy. A better analogy is a train with two different route. On the current track, the train will hit two babies tied to the rails. If you throw the switch, the train will hit an old man tied to the rails. You don't have time to untie everybody, you only have time to flip the switch if you so choose. What do you do?

Most people would see it's a simple choice: the lesser of two evils. Choosing neither is not an option, and in actuality, choosing neither is a choice in favor of the greater of two evils.

Congestion charge favors wealthy commuters who can afford it? This is most likely how roads would be run. Is it fair that the rich can get more food than the poor? Is it fair that the rich can go on vacations but the poor can't? I realize that government running it isn't the best, but at least it tends toward the free market direction.

Once again, you are misapplying the noncoercion maxim. Favoring the wealthy wouldn't be a problem if the roads weren't public to begin with. Did you forget that public roads are paid with tax dollars, and that tax dollars are collected from the wealthy and the poor alike? A user fee for a tax-payer supported system become an unjust, coercive benefit for the wealthy.

Selling off roads piecemeal is moving in the direction of that ultimate goal. Expanding government ownership is the opposite direction.

Selling off roads piecemeal to who? The coercive coporatists? You cannot just blindly stagger towards a "free market" as if every small step is some sort of libertarian panacea. The fact is a partially free market can allow for greater corporate coercion than a properly regulated market.

You cannot judge the success of a government system based on how closely it resembles a truly free, unregulated market. As a libertarian, you must judge the success of a government based on the maximization of liberty, and a minimization of coercion. And yo must always remember: corporate coercion weighs as heavily as government coercion.
 
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Doesn't logically follow. Try again.

Yes it does. The interstate system is huge, do you really think that any one company could construct it from scratch, providing the most extensive road system available for all people to use in a time frame that would allow them to recover their initial investment and then turn a profit? That doesn't logically follow.

How did the auto companies ever start with the huge startup costs associated with an automanufacturing plant? I wonder how long it takes for those things to become profitable.

Cars started as a luxury item, only the rich had them. It wasn't until Ford came up with the idea of the assembly line that the car was affordable for the common man to have. But again, this is folly of aggregation. There is a LARGE difference in scale between a auto manufacturing plant and the scale, complexity, and scope of the interstate system. You keep saying "well it is feasible on this small scale, thus it has to be feasible on this much larger scale". But that's not true, particularly with private business (particularly if we're assuming they are getting no money from the government); things do not infinitely scale up.

Way to go! You just completely ignored the standardization that has come about in technology without any government control. Congratulations!

And what standardization is that? With something as complex as high speed rail, you're going to need tight regulations. Not only on speed of trains, but down to the very network it uses to communicate. Particularly if the goal is to eventually link them all up. For ease of transition when linked, they need to have similar systems in place, with similar safety protocols and similar architecture in order to efficiently and effectively link lines with minimal down time (which would be VERY important to private business anyway).

We have more capital than we had back then, way more. Are you seriously arguing that we can't build projects today at the scale at which they were built in the 1800s? That's nonsense and you know it.

We can't even rebuild New Orleans in a reasonable time (seriously, is that place fixed even now?). While we are most certainly able to scale up to some degree today; there are also other considerations such as safety, labor, and environmental laws which exist today. We cannot build a high speed rail system with slave Chinese labor. The complexity of the system and technology here is not the same which existed in the 1800's. In fact, they could not even envision high speed rail in the 1800's. While we can and do tackle well more complicated and expensive projects now than we did in the 1800's, it's still not infinitely scalable.

A national system can be developed by many smaller individual systems. Spontaneous order.

It's possible, particularly if you want to go the oligopoly route. However, it is not the most efficient and effective means by which one can institute order. That, for something on the scale we are talking about here, is bets accomplished through government.

How did the auto companies ever start with the huge startup costs associated with an automanufacturing plant? I wonder how long it takes for those things to become profitable.

Through very lax labor laws, by making limited products priced appropriately (in this case, selling almost exclusively to the rich), and by needing to just make a manufacturing plant and not a national interstate system or national high speed rail system. Surely you can see the difference in scale, can you not?
 
Yes it does. The interstate system is huge, do you really think that any one company could construct it from scratch, providing the most extensive road system available for all people to use in a time frame that would allow them to recover their initial investment and then turn a profit? That doesn't logically follow.

I never claimed that one company would do it and you know it! From the start I've talked about a mosaic system so don't be disingenuous.

Cars started as a luxury item, only the rich had them. It wasn't until Ford came up with the idea of the assembly line that the car was affordable for the common man to have. But again, this is folly of aggregation. There is a LARGE difference in scale between a auto manufacturing plant and the scale, complexity, and scope of the interstate system. You keep saying "well it is feasible on this small scale, thus it has to be feasible on this much larger scale". But that's not true, particularly with private business (particularly if we're assuming they are getting no money from the government); things do not infinitely scale up.

A car manufacturing plant is probably the equivalent of a freeway through a city or a freeway in between cities. This is important because a national system could be developed piecemeal through smaller projects. It happened in England with their turnpike system.

And what standardization is that? With something as complex as high speed rail, you're going to need tight regulations. Not only on speed of trains, but down to the very network it uses to communicate. Particularly if the goal is to eventually link them all up. For ease of transition when linked, they need to have similar systems in place, with similar safety protocols and similar architecture in order to efficiently and effectively link lines with minimal down time (which would be VERY important to private business anyway).

For efficiency most companies would figure out a way to do that as most computer hardware companies have settled on PCI, firewire, and USB. There was no exogenous control forcing that to happen, spontaneous order merely emerged on the market.

We can't even rebuild New Orleans in a reasonable time (seriously, is that place fixed even now?). While we are most certainly able to scale up to some degree today; there are also other considerations such as safety, labor, and environmental laws which exist today. We cannot build a high speed rail system with slave Chinese labor. The complexity of the system and technology here is not the same which existed in the 1800's. In fact, they could not even envision high speed rail in the 1800's. While we can and do tackle well more complicated and expensive projects now than we did in the 1800's, it's still not infinitely scalable.

We have much more capital today and hence the railroad of the 1800s is relatively a larger project than a high speed rail line today. By the way, "slave Chinese labor" assumes that they were forced to work upon threat of death. Is that what happened with the Great Northern Railroad? And most companies do recognize safety as the death of a laborer would cost them a lot of money.

It's possible, particularly if you want to go the oligopoly route. However, it is not the most efficient and effective means by which one can institute order. That, for something on the scale we are talking about here, is bets accomplished through government.

Again, government is not the perfect entity that you make it out to be. They overpay their employees and have no idea what to build, what to expand, and what to abandon because they have no price mechanism. With no concept of profit then you can't determine how to best deal with scarcity. It's what happened to the Soviet Union, and is true for any industry that you try to nationalize.

Through very lax labor laws, by making limited products priced appropriately (in this case, selling almost exclusively to the rich), and by needing to just make a manufacturing plant and not a national interstate system or national high speed rail system. Surely you can see the difference in scale, can you not?

Surely you can too, as roads would be built slowly through cities first and then from city to city and then by connecting all of these system you'll get an entire interstate system. I don't know why you insist on one company building the entire thing. No one has ever claimed that that is how it would or should happen.
 
Exactly. You understand the principle but you are misunderstanding the application. Keep that in mind as you read my response to this post:



Thats unfortunate, because "neither" isn't an option. Forget you shooting them, that's a false analogy. A better analogy is a train with two different route. On the current track, the train will hit two babies tied to the rails. If you throw the switch, the train will hit an old man tied to the rails. You don't have time to untie everybody, you only have time to flip the switch if you so choose. What do you do?

Most people would see it's a simple choice: the lesser of two evils. Choosing neither is not an option, and in actuality, choosing neither is a choice in favor of the greater of two evils.

That assumes that you have to support either or. With a democracy that is not the case. Do you vote democrat or republican in elections? I vote libertarian, even though I know it will lose, at least I cast my vote of opposition toward this system.

Once again, you are misapplying the noncoercion maxim. Favoring the wealthy wouldn't be a problem if the roads weren't public to begin with. Did you forget that public roads are paid with tax dollars, and that tax dollars are collected from the wealthy and the poor alike? A user fee for a tax-payer supported system become an unjust, coercive benefit for the wealthy.

Not if the tolls and tolls alone paid for the freeway.

Have you read Walter Block's The Privatization of Roads and Highways?

Selling off roads piecemeal to who? The coercive coporatists? You cannot just blindly stagger towards a "free market" as if every small step is some sort of libertarian panacea. The fact is a partially free market can allow for greater corporate coercion than a properly regulated market.

You cannot judge the success of a government system based on how closely it resembles a truly free, unregulated market. As a libertarian, you must judge the success of a government based on the maximization of liberty, and a minimization of coercion. And yo must always remember: corporate coercion weighs as heavily as government coercion.

Maximization of liberty is always supporting an increase in freedom, never condoning the unjust system that we have today. Obviously selling to companies with government favor isn't good, but then again corporate corruption in government is another, separate problem that needs to be dealt with.
 
That assumes that you have to support either or. With a democracy that is not the case. Do you vote democrat or republican in elections? I vote libertarian, even though I know it will lose, at least I cast my vote of opposition toward this system.

Throwing your vote away on a third party is immoral in the same way as refusing to throw the switch and letting two babies get run over in our train hypothetical.


Not if the tolls and tolls alone paid for the freeway.

Well, they didn't. In real life public taxes paid for the roads. You need to stop applying fantasyland politics to the real world.

Maximization of liberty is always supporting an increase in freedom, never condoning the unjust system that we have today.

I find this sentence ironic coming from the person who throws away his vote every election. Is the person in the train hypothetical "condoning" the train running somebody over? Of course not. Choosing the lesser of two evils is always the moral choice. Refusing to make a choice, and thereby permitted a greater evil, is the cowardly route. You can claim principle all you like, but you are doing harm in the real world.

Obviously selling to companies with government favor isn't good, but then again corporate corruption in government is another, separate problem that needs to be dealt with.

They are not separate problems, they are inextricably linked. Corporatist coercion is the inevitable effect of inertia on a free market, and the ideal minarchist libertarian government would be just enough to counteract corruption of the free market.
 
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