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Thread: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Annnnnd, where does the rest of it come from?
    Federal grants. Just like every other transportation project ever, from the Erie Canal to Interstate 49.

    The main funding difference between HSR and I-49 in Louisiana is that user fees only pay for about half of the operations and maintenance of the road. HSR runs an operating profit on user fees alone.


    Subsidyscope.org — Transportation: Analysis Finds Shifting Trends in Highway Funding: User Fees Make Up Decreasing Share

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Trains have a business model and roads do not. To just run in like there is no difference between the two and the government HAS to do it for it to exist is nonsense.
    Last edited by Henrin; 02-16-11 at 10:53 PM.

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Maybe, the best justification for this line of thinking I have seen so far is because that money is taxed, which is poor justification. Taxation is a form of payment, just like any other form of payment. If not, please tell me the difference.



    Only the fed and banks can make money, due to fractional reserve lending (and the fed's printing press). A private customer can only take money --in the form of payments-- from the private sector. What is the fundamental difference here?

    Typically the process of creating value goes like this. You take a raw material (in the government's case, unused land), you apply a process to it which adds value (paving land), than you have more value. Now that increased value is either sold (hopefully at a profit) or it is used (such as the case of roads). For example, the plant I work in has a machine shop, they take raw metal blocks and make machine or structural parts for the equipment or property. This is not sold, but it is used and does add value (especially in cases where this new thing augments the function of the property or equipment) whether by increasing function or replacing a deteriorating part. A road is no different than one of these machine parts.

    Now, I happily await your rebuttal to this point. So far you have managed to call me stupid and repeat a mantra without providing any reasoning behind it. Hopefully you will be able to do better in future posts.
    Surem bro. It's called, "supply and demand". There is a demand and your company supplies goods to meet that demand. It's how your company makes a profit.

    Government can't create demand. Government can't create jobs. Government can't create wealth. The United States didn't grow into the strongest economy in world history, because the government did any of those things.

    BTW, I never called you stupid. Don't put words into my mouth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by TitusAndronicus View Post
    Federal grants. Just like every other transportation project ever, from the Erie Canal to Interstate 49.

    The main funding difference between HSR and I-49 in Louisiana is that user fees only pay for about half of the operations and maintenance of the road. HSR runs an operating profit on user fees alone.


    Subsidyscope.org — Transportation: Analysis Finds Shifting Trends in Highway Funding: User Fees Make Up Decreasing Share
    ...I just can't say it enough...where did that money come from?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Trains have a business model and roads do not. To just run in like there is no difference between the two and the government HAS to do it for it to exist is nonsense.
    Which makes me wonder how long it will before the Obamabots will decry the, "evil railroads", after the railroad companies have taken over, with government assistance.

    Ya just can't fix stupid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    ...I just can't say it enough...where did that money come from?
    I'm not sure I understand your point. Do you not believe in subsidies? As in...they do not exist? You seem to be saying that since federal money comes from tax dollars, which come from you and me, that the government spending this money on infrastructure is not government subsidization. What would qualify as a government subsidy then? The US government has no major income other than taxes. By this logic, surely nothing the US gives money to can qualify as a subsidizing.

    Imagine the Interstate Highway System is a private corporation. They have expenses and revenues. The expenses are the upkeep and operations of the highways. Lets say this costs 100 units per year. The revenues are the tolls (if any) and gas tax revenue. According to the graph above, this has a value of about 51 units per year. The highway system thus operates at a loss of 49 units per year. Normally the corporation would go bankrupt, but in this case, the highway is too big to fail, so the government takes money from unrelated fields and gives it to the highway operator. It thus subsidizes the highway system by 49 units per year. This money comes from all people, regardless of whether or not they can or do use the system. It, in conjunction with massive oil subsidies/tax breaks that lower the true price of gasoline from in the vicinity of $5.50/gallon to the $3.00/gallon it is today, is a form of welfare.

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by TitusAndronicus View Post
    I'm not sure I understand your point. Do you not believe in subsidies? As in...they do not exist? You seem to be saying that since federal money comes from tax dollars, which come from you and me, that the government spending this money on infrastructure is not government subsidization. What would qualify as a government subsidy then? The US government has no major income other than taxes. By this logic, surely nothing the US gives money to can qualify as a subsidizing.

    Imagine the Interstate Highway System is a private corporation. They have expenses and revenues. The expenses are the upkeep and operations of the highways. Lets say this costs 100 units per year. The revenues are the tolls (if any) and gas tax revenue. According to the graph above, this has a value of about 51 units per year. The highway system thus operates at a loss of 49 units per year. Normally the corporation would go bankrupt, but in this case, the highway is too big to fail, so the government takes money from unrelated fields and gives it to the highway operator. It thus subsidizes the highway system by 49 units per year. This money comes from all people, regardless of whether or not they can or do use the system. It, in conjunction with massive oil subsidies/tax breaks that lower the true price of gasoline from in the vicinity of $5.50/gallon to the $3.00/gallon it is today, is a form of welfare.
    That's exactly what I'm saying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    That's exactly what I'm saying.
    Then what is a government subsidy exactly? Give me an example of one.

    And to get back to the point of this thread, what is your problem with HSR? Let's say that a HSR line is built and for some reason it doesn't make a profit. The government will move some money around and operations will be paid for through our tax dollars. How is this different from any other piece of transportation infrastructure?

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by TitusAndronicus View Post
    Then what is a government subsidy exactly? Give me an example of one.
    A benefit given by the government to groups or individuals usually in the form of a cash payment or tax reduction. The subsidy is usually given to remove some type of burden and is often considered to be in the interest of the public.

    Subsidy Definition
    Roads aren't a, "subsidy". Sorry.



    And to get back to the point of this thread, what is your problem with HSR? Let's say that a HSR line is built and for some reason it doesn't make a profit. The government will move some money around and operations will be paid for through our tax dollars.
    At that point, it will be the giant waste of tax dollars that I expect it to be.


    How is this different from any other piece of transportation infrastructure?
    Again, I haven't recieved a ****ing penny from the government to keep my trucks on the road.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by TitusAndronicus View Post
    Then what is a government subsidy exactly? Give me an example of one.
    A benefit given by the government to groups or individuals usually in the form of a cash payment or tax reduction. The subsidy is usually given to remove some type of burden and is often considered to be in the interest of the public.

    Subsidy Definition
    Roads aren't a, "subsidy". Sorry.



    And to get back to the point of this thread, what is your problem with HSR? Let's say that a HSR line is built and for some reason it doesn't make a profit. The government will move some money around and operations will be paid for through our tax dollars.
    At that point, it will be the giant waste of tax dollars that I expect it to be.


    How is this different from any other piece of transportation infrastructure?
    Again, I haven't recieved a ****ing penny from the government to keep my trucks on the road.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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