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Thread: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    So something which costs less than any of those things, which would provide jobs while the economy can recover, which would net out a positive and new transportation option to get around the country would be a dud because.....you say so? But it's ok to spend 10's, 100's, even 1000's of more than that on other things because...well we don't need to worry about money then?
    If the return is less than the investment and the operating costs, it's a dud. Amtrack, comes to mind.

    Maybe if you were consistent with your criticism I could believe that your opinion is an intellectually honest and non-partisan one. But you seem to dismiss huge spending on some fronts and criticize smaller spending on other fronts so long as it appeals to your partisan ideology.
    I'm very consistent with my criticism. I've said for years that the government can't 1) create wealth nor, 2) create jobs. It just can't be done. The government has been trying to do it for two years, now and it has been a massive multi-trillion dollar failure.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Maybe you're too short sighted. The rails initially popped up to ship people and things from one end to the other. Now we do it by air freight or truck/rail (across the US). But air freight can be expensive, where as by rail is relatively inexpensive. A high speed system gives you something which can compete on the order of airlines. This is particularly useful for personal transportation as it will give people more options rather than flying. Maybe you haven't taken a family of 4 on a plane...it's expensive. But rail, even high speed rail, tends to be drastically cheaper than airline fair. And if the time increase is only maybe a factor of 2 instead of 10, it becomes a much more viable option. It also opens up ease of business trips through rail, rail is safer and less likely to be driven into a building than planes, it can increase tourism to varying States by making it easier and more convenient to travel between the States.

    There is a wealth of potential in high speed rails. When the interstates were constructed, it probably was not foreseen to be as successful and accepted as it is now. High speed rail is in the same category.
    Then, the airlines will start losing money and they'll need a bailout. How is this supposed to be a good thing?

    The more I hear about cockamaimy ideas like this, the more I favor private investment in such projects.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    We can count on the government to be on top of that. Right?
    As much as any other major corporation. You don't think all those places that got our bailout money did so without "waste" do you? Or are you just making partisan arguments, ignoring the larger sum of money we spent on even more wasteful avenues than one which would provide a service to America at whole?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    That's not making money. That's printing money. Big difference.
    There is a bit of a difference, but you asked where the money would come from. We can print money at our leisure. Congress has that power.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    During the Iraq war, were we in the middle of a depression? As far as the banks are concerned, I said let them fold.
    No, but we've spent trillions of dollars on it now. I think that if one were to legitimately be asking where we can cut down, the first place would be from the war. Like Iraq fend for itself, it's not our duty to make them a government. I don't want to pay for their crap when we're worrying about paying for our own crap. The only think about this high speed rail is that during normal times I would have said no. But since we're in this big depression, there are ways to use government to alivieate the stress on the middle and lower classes while producing a positive net for us all as a whole. We don't need to carve faces into a mountain, but a high speed rail system would be a huge benefit to the lot of us.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Or, are you saying because Obama told you it's a great idea?
    Nope, I don't particularly like Obama. But I said at the very beginning of the depression that what we should do, instead of bailing out the "too big to fail" jerks was to build a high speed rail system and create a high speed internet backbone for the country as well. I thought those would be worth while work projects to temporarily employ folk out of a job and to give us something positive in the end. We didn't get anything positive from spending all our money on those banking jerks.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Then, the airlines will start losing money and they'll need a bailout. How is this supposed to be a good thing?

    The more I hear about cockamaimy ideas like this, the more I favor private investment in such projects.
    They already get bail out money and huge subsidies. I'm willing to let the airline industry go and let it survive on its own. It would consolidate into only a few carriers because of the costs involved. Meanwhile, the high speed rail would then offer good alternatives for the rest of us who don't want to be felt up by TSA.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    For those who say government cannot create wealth, how would you then classify infrastructure?

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    If the return is less than the investment and the operating costs, it's a dud. Amtrack, comes to mind.
    Low speed rail is viable for certain distances. But it's not as great for long distances. High speed rail is great for both. And not all work projects ended up like Amtrack in the end. You're making an assumption that it won't be used to make your final conclusion. But I think that it would actually be well used since it would drastically cut travel time between major cities and would be a great alternative to flying.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I'm very consistent with my criticism. I've said for years that the government can't 1) create wealth nor, 2) create jobs. It just can't be done. The government has been trying to do it for two years, now and it has been a massive multi-trillion dollar failure.
    The government can create wealth, it does so by existing. There is a large amount of value you get out of the government in general. It can also create jobs such as employing people for work projects. Now I will say that it's not generally good at doing these things well and can be rather wasteful. Which is why under normal operations, I choose not to employ it. But when the economy completely breaks as it has done, it does become possible on the short term to use government for these means. It won't be permanent. You're essentially investing into projects to keep people working till the private sector can recover to take back over. But it is possible and in these times even warranted.

    We've spent money, we've spent **** tons of money. I have always said that if we're going to spend that money I would have MUCH preferred a works project over bailouts to the wealthy.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    For those who say government cannot create wealth, how would you then classify infrastructure?
    How does that create wealth? Where does the money come from to build that infrastructure?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  8. #38
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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    As much as any other major corporation. You don't think all those places that got our bailout money did so without "waste" do you? Or are you just making partisan arguments, ignoring the larger sum of money we spent on even more wasteful avenues than one which would provide a service to America at whole?
    Of course they wasted their money; all the more reason why I oppose bailouts.



    There is a bit of a difference, but you asked where the money would come from. We can print money at our leisure. Congress has that power.
    Yeah, the Weimar government tried that to fix their economy. Sorry, but paying a million bucks for a loaf of bread won't be an economically positive sign.



    No, but we've spent trillions of dollars on it now. I think that if one were to legitimately be asking where we can cut down, the first place would be from the war. Like Iraq fend for itself, it's not our duty to make them a government. I don't want to pay for their crap when we're worrying about paying for our own crap. The only think about this high speed rail is that during normal times I would have said no. But since we're in this big depression, there are ways to use government to alivieate the stress on the middle and lower classes while producing a positive net for us all as a whole. We don't need to carve faces into a mountain, but a high speed rail system would be a huge benefit to the lot of us.
    Ok, that's fine; tell me again how that justifies wasting billions more on a friggin' train line?



    Nope, I don't particularly like Obama. But I said at the very beginning of the depression that what we should do, instead of bailing out the "too big to fail" jerks was to build a high speed rail system and create a high speed internet backbone for the country as well. I thought those would be worth while work projects to temporarily employ folk out of a job and to give us something positive in the end. We didn't get anything positive from spending all our money on those banking jerks.
    But you sure do sound like a Libbo.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    How does that create wealth? Where does the money come from to build that infrastructure?
    It creates wealth because it is a vehicle in order for people to maximize their efforts. Taking the highway system as an example, it allows for a greater volume of shipping than would otherwise be possible. It makes the shipping easier too. It is essentially a capital investment in the same way a stamping machine would be for a machine shop.

    It comes from taxes.

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    They already get bail out money and huge subsidies. I'm willing to let the airline industry go and let it survive on its own. It would consolidate into only a few carriers because of the costs involved. Meanwhile, the high speed rail would then offer good alternatives for the rest of us
    How so? Am I going to be able to buy my own train, put it on this line and operate a train business?



    who don't want to be felt up by TSA.
    Tell me that you have enough common sense to know that that won't go away, just because you're getting on a train.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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