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Thread: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

  1. #351
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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Come now, I've taken you to task on this issue many times already, so stop bringing it up. Furthermore, you're probably right that the scale is too large for private industry, and that's probably because much of the system is unprofitable. Do you really think that all of the roads that we have built were completely necessary? What about a lack of roads in areas that should have more?
    Partly because something like the interstate is not a profitable thing, yes. That is one reason why it is out of reach of private industry. You have not taken me to task on the issue, I have addressed everything you tried to bring up and explained why in the modern world it will not work. The government, on the other hand, doesn't need to be profitable to survive. Which is why it can do a lot of this on the scale at which it does it. Private industry just cannot do something that expensive, that large, and that time consuming that even if they could get profits from it; it would require years and decades to see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Because of government subsidized competition! Don't lie and say it's because they can't raise the capital when you know it is because government has its hand in driving and transit. There is no room for private companies to compete since the users of their transportation would still have to pay for public transportation regardless.
    Government does subsidize quite a bit. I would like to see the rail go up, and the transportation subsidies go away. However, what I said still remains true. To get to a working product would take a tremendous amount of money, which maybe on occassion some companies can raise billions, but they would need closer to that "trillions" to do it. The scale is huge. There are no more robber barrens, monopolies have been crushed. Now with the emergence of oligopoly, it may be possible but they usually have their hands in other cookie jars. The time necessary to complete the product to the point at which you have a workable system is too long. The amount of time necessary to be in production with the released consumer product in order to recover the initial investments is too long. Business cannot exist in a non-profitable state for the amount of time necessary to create a true national, high speed rail system. That's the plain old truth.

    There are just some things the private sector cannot do.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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  2. #352
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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Partly because something like the interstate is not a profitable thing, yes.
    And how exactly did you divine that fact? I know of no way to tell whether an interstate is profitable or not because there is no way to do economic calculation. That is the heart of the problem. People aren't directly paying for the product and we have no way of telling what the external benefits are. A private company would have people pay directly for the road and would internalize any externalities they create. We would easily be able to tell whether or not such a project is profitable. Can't do it with government. Surely roads would be profitable if run by private companies, but not with our current framework of subsidized alternatives.

    That is one reason why it is out of reach of private industry. You have not taken me to task on the issue, I have addressed everything you tried to bring up and explained why in the modern world it will not work. The government, on the other hand, doesn't need to be profitable to survive. Which is why it can do a lot of this on the scale at which it does it. Private industry just cannot do something that expensive, that large, and that time consuming that even if they could get profits from it; it would require years and decades to see it.
    How long does it take for an oil company to receive a profit on the drilling it does. I can take 30 years for an offshore oil platform to start producing, yet oil companies do it anyway, don't they? How long does it take for a skyscraper to become profitable? How long does it take for a typical mortgage to become profitable! Yet it happens all the time. People take huge losses at the present for gains in the future. To deny this fact is to deny reality.

    Government does subsidize quite a bit. I would like to see the rail go up, and the transportation subsidies go away. However, what I said still remains true. To get to a working product would take a tremendous amount of money, which maybe on occassion some companies can raise billions, but they would need closer to that "trillions" to do it. The scale is huge.
    No one has been proposing that one company would build an entire national system. There would be a mosaic built by many smaller companies each contributing their part to a national system (most likely).

    There are no more robber barrens, monopolies have been crushed. Now with the emergence of oligopoly, it may be possible but they usually have their hands in other cookie jars. The time necessary to complete the product to the point at which you have a workable system is too long. The amount of time necessary to be in production with the released consumer product in order to recover the initial investments is too long. Business cannot exist in a non-profitable state for the amount of time necessary to create a true national, high speed rail system. That's the plain old truth.
    Again, oil companies and financiers do this all the time. Why are you conveniently ignoring them?

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  3. #353
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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    And how exactly did you divine that fact? I know of no way to tell whether an interstate is profitable or not because there is no way to do economic calculation. That is the heart of the problem. People aren't directly paying for the product and we have no way of telling what the external benefits are. A private company
    Exactly. The question is not whether high speed rail would be profitable in a true free market. It probably would, but there is no way to prove this fact.

    What is provable is the fact that we do not live in a free market, we live in a market corrupted by corporate coercion, and to a lesser extent government coercion. The fact is that something like high speed rail is necessary to break the corporatist strangle hold of the economy.
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 02-23-11 at 12:34 PM.

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Exactly. The question is not whether high speed rail would be profitable in a true free market. It probably would, but there is no way to prove this fact.
    I like this.

    What is provable is the fact that we do not live in a free market, we live in a market corrupted by corporate coercion, and to a lesser extent government coercion.
    And I like this.

    The fact is that something like high speed rail is necessary to break the corporatist strangle hold of the economy.
    But then you did this. How does allowing government even more influence over the economy "break the corporatist strangle hold of the economy"? Just because the results are more desirable as you see them does not mean that government control has weakened.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    But then you did this. How does allowing government even more influence over the economy "break the corporatist strangle hold of the economy"? Just because the results are more desirable as you see them does not mean that government control has weakened.
    It's the lesser of two evils. Either transportation will be dominated by the corporatist oil cartel or it will be dominated by government. At least the people have a controlling stake in the government. If you see a way in for the free market I'm all ears, but otherwise those are the only options I see.

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    It's the lesser of two evils. Either transportation will be dominated by the corporatist oil cartel or it will be dominated by government. If you see a way in for the free market I'm all ears, but otherwise those are the only options I see.
    Simple. Don't support any expansion of government in transportation in any way. If a road widening project is proposed, oppose it. New exit on the freeway; oppose it. New freeway; oppose it. Only support those things that would tend toward a more free market in transportation. If there is a proposal to congestion price a roads; support it. A proposal to to set market rates for transit; support it. But at the same time, don't support social engineering schemes such as allowing the poor to get discounts for transits or subsidized car loans for low-income earners. We have to support anything and everything in the direction of our ultimate goal, otherwise we essentially cast our vote in support of this corrupt, interventionist system that we currently have.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    A true, national high speed rail would be well worth the investment of money in addition to providing many jobs to see people through the economic turndown. I mean, that's if you care about the average American instead of sending the billions upon billions of dollars to bailouts of the banks and CEOs who made the mess.
    Forget about the mess. Those CEOs have millions in personal wealth. Even though they sent their company into the crapper. What I want to know is how who someone failed at running a business gets bailed out and manages to keep millions for himself after everything.

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray_Fox_86 View Post
    Forget about the mess. Those CEOs have millions in personal wealth. Even though they sent their company into the crapper. What I want to know is how who someone failed at running a business gets bailed out and manages to keep millions for himself after everything.
    Because of special favors from his government buddies.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Because of special favors from his government buddies.
    Right. Its time to cut off their heads.

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Simple. Don't support any expansion of government in transportation in any way.
    I salute your idealism, but this is effectively giving way to the corporatists. Perhaps you're making some sort of "devil that you know" argument?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    If a road widening project is proposed, oppose it. New exit on the freeway; oppose it. New freeway; oppose it. Only support those things that would tend toward a more free market in transportation.
    There is no such thing. Right now the situation is totally either/or. Unless we're talking about bicycles, your only ways of getting around are going to need fuel derived from oil. So the real question is, do we want to favor inefficient modes transportation that benefit the oil cartels, or do we want efficient transportation provided by government that benefits the economy and the environment?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    If there is a proposal to congestion price a roads; support it. A proposal to to set market rates for transit; support it.
    How are these any more "free market" solutions than the previous things you mentioned? Don't be deceived by the mere fact that there is a market in play, unless the market is truly free it doesn't matter if the prices are determined by the "market" or not, because ultimately we're talking about a illegitimate, coercive market.

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Simple. Don't support any expansion of government in transportation in any way.
    I salute you idealism, but this is effectively giving way to the corporatists. Perhaps you're making some sort of "devil that you know" argument?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    If a road widening project is proposed, oppose it. New exit on the freeway; oppose it. New freeway; oppose it. Only support those things that would tend toward a more free market in transportation.
    There is no such thing. Right now the situation is totally either/or. Unless we're talking about bicycles, your only ways of getting around are going to need fuel derived from oil. So the real question is, do we want to favor inefficient modes transportation that benefit the oil cartels, or do we want efficient transportation provided by government that benefits the economy and the environment?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    But at the same time, don't support social engineering schemes such as allowing the poor to get discounts for transits or subsidized car loans for low-income earners.
    Again, this is no more a "social engineering scheme" than charging commuters for peak congestion hours on public roads. But, while a congestion charge favors wealthy commuters who can afford it, subsidized loans favor low income earners. I'd be more inclined to the latter, myself, but neither is a free market solution. Don't kid yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Simple. Don't support any expansion of government in transportation in any way.
    I salute you idealism, but this is effectively giving way to the corporatists. Perhaps you're making some sort of "devil that you know" argument?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    If a road widening project is proposed, oppose it. New exit on the freeway; oppose it. New freeway; oppose it. Only support those things that would tend toward a more free market in transportation.
    There is no such thing. Right now the situation is totally either/or. Unless we're talking about bicycles, your only ways of getting around are going to need fuel derived from oil. So the real question is, do we want to favor inefficient modes transportation that benefit the oil cartels, or do we want efficient transportation provided by government that benefits the economy and the environment?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    We have to support anything and everything in the direction of our ultimate goal, otherwise we essentially cast our vote in support of this corrupt, interventionist system that we currently have.
    That's just it. There is nothing moving in the direction of our ultimate goal. Once you realize that you'll have a much clearer view of the world.
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 02-23-11 at 12:57 PM.

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