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Thread: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

  1. #341
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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    The state is an immoral institution.
    Should the state be destroyed?

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Define reasonable.



    Eminent domain ignores subjective value and so has stolen billions if not trillions of dollars from innocent homeowners.



    If you own property, do you own all the land above and below your property? No, you only own the land. So you can go below or you can go above (within reason of course, and so I would assume without eminent domain the standard would be below ground).
    I don't support your eminent domain proposal...

    I have an idea... I don't really support it personally, but I am intersted in your thoughts. Instead of the government owning land or individuals/businesses.. what about collective ownership? Wouldn't it make sense for people to take care of the roads themselves, putting money in a collection pot to pay the snow shovel and salt trucks? Everybody would have access to it, and nobody's potential would be limited to it's resources.... water, hunting, farming, etc. as agreed upon by the community. It also wouldn't be owned by the government? What do you think?

    I know it's a little short sighted, so that's why I can't say it's a good idea... I don't know what kinds of problems it could lead to, but it's not government property.

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Poor U.S. Road Conditions Cost Drivers an Extra $52 Billion in Annual Vehicle Repairs: aftermarket News

    Poor road conditions cost us $52 billion.



    We could get a lot of benefit from it, if it was built, operated, and maintained by private companies.
    Why would a company... any company, want to get in the business of managing, funding, and maintaining the US highway system??? I am not really convinced it would be profitable within the free market.

    And why do you act like big companies don't have waste or mismanagement? My accounting proff was always telling us how poorly companies are managed in terms of cost management and investing money in the areas with the highest profit potential... He is full of examples, because he has been in the profession of cost accounting for years. In the private sector, accountants are there to advice mgt on theses things, but doesn't always mean that mgt will listen to our recommendations. Look at the recession, it's a prime example of mismanagement of assets in the banking industry.
    Last edited by SheWolf; 02-21-11 at 03:44 PM.

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Whovian View Post
    Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama - USATODAY.com



    But...but...didn't Obama promise us high speed rail in the SOTU address?
    High-speed rail travel is absolutely fantastic, and it offers a really attractive alternative to flying in some situations, but I don't think it should be at the top of America's "to do" list. "Save culture", "fix economy", "grow up", those might take precedence, heh.

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    We have good roads though. Some could be better, but go to Somolia and tell me how roads are over there.
    The classic Somalia argument. I don't recall ever saying that a violent society with years of war and invasion are better than the general peace in the US. But nice of you to concede that road conditions are a problem and that government hasn't really done anything about it for years.

    Yes, there is grift and there is corruption and there is waste. We really need to get on top of that, stop waiting for the government to do so because the government won't. We have to be responsible. But at the same time, it's not worth throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The interstate system is pretty nice, and is heavily heavily used (one reason why it falls into disrepair so quickly), it exists on a scale which cannot be created by private industry in today's era.
    Come now, I've taken you to task on this issue many times already, so stop bringing it up. Furthermore, you're probably right that the scale is too large for private industry, and that's probably because much of the system is unprofitable. Do you really think that all of the roads that we have built were completely necessary? What about a lack of roads in areas that should have more?

    Now, it may be possible for them to purchase sections, but they couldn't from scratch make a whole new one. Too large. Too expensive. Too long (time wise). This is a job for government, this is something government is able to do better than the private sector. Now at the same time, it does require proper oversight and we have to insist on running a tight ship. But the point remains, our road conditions may cost any one of us a few extra hundred bucks a year, and while we could probably drive that down further through elimination of waste, the fact that the interstate system exists on the scale it exists on and is kept in repair well enough to be used as much as it is, is in and of itself quite the feat of engineering. And one best facilitated by the use of government, not private enterprise.
    Yet I've shown example after example of private industry raising billions if not trillions in capital for their projects. If they can do it for commercial and residential property, why not transportation? At least they'd have a way to calculate whether or not a project is worthwhile. Government's method is political pandering. What we'd see from private industry is a mosaic system of roads owned by different companies and different transportation modes competing with each other. I suggest reading this book by Walter Block:

    The Privatization of Roads and Highways - Walter Block

    A true, high speed national rail system is something which exists outside the scope of private industry. It is too large an aggregated beast with far too much capital necessary for not just start up, but completion of final, working product, along with a time investment to a working product which is outside the grasp of private industry.

    There's a reason why private industry hasn't done something like this. Not because there isn't money to be made, but because it's not accessible to them.
    Because of government subsidized competition! Don't lie and say it's because they can't raise the capital when you know it is because government has its hand in driving and transit. There is no room for private companies to compete since the users of their transportation would still have to pay for public transportation regardless.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    I don't support your eminent domain proposal...

    I have an idea... I don't really support it personally, but I am intersted in your thoughts. Instead of the government owning land or individuals/businesses.. what about collective ownership? Wouldn't it make sense for people to take care of the roads themselves, putting money in a collection pot to pay the snow shovel and salt trucks? Everybody would have access to it, and nobody's potential would be limited to it's resources.... water, hunting, farming, etc. as agreed upon by the community. It also wouldn't be owned by the government? What do you think?

    I know it's a little short sighted, so that's why I can't say it's a good idea... I don't know what kinds of problems it could lead to, but it's not government property.
    Tragedy of the Commons. Look it up on Wikipedia.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    Why would a company... any company, want to get in the business of managing, funding, and maintaining the US highway system??? I am not really convinced it would be profitable within the free market.

    And why do you act like big companies don't have waste or mismanagement? My accounting proff was always telling us how poorly companies are managed in terms of cost management and investing money in the areas with the highest profit potential... He is full of examples, because he has been in the profession of cost accounting for years. In the private sector, accountants are there to advice mgt on theses things, but doesn't always mean that mgt will listen to our recommendations. Look at the recession, it's a prime example of mismanagement of assets in the banking industry.
    We live in a corporatist economy. Favored companies are in essence subsidized by the government and are not subject to the whims of consumers as are companies on the free market. This corrupt system allows such bad practices to survives whereas they would quickly be eliminated in a free market.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    Should the state be destroyed?
    The ultimate goal would be getting rid of it entirely. I don't support violent revolution, nor do I claim that it would necessarily work. I do know, however, that we are suffering from a problem of too much government and that restricting it in every way possible at every opportunity would do a tremendous good.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    Why would a company... any company, want to get in the business of managing, funding, and maintaining the US highway system??? I am not really convinced it would be profitable within the free market.
    They started privatizing sections of the highways in my province (BC) in Canada in 1988, as an experiment, and its worked very well.

    Bids are opened up to private companies covering a section of road, with the distance being determined by the terrain and other factors, and the contract lasting five years, I believe. It has saved the province a great deal of money and they no longer have to be concerned with government unions shutting down the entire highway system. It is the government though who inspects the roads, and handles the bids, to ensure the job is done properly.
    Last edited by Grant; 02-23-11 at 11:52 AM.

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    They started privatizing sections of the highways in my province (BC) in Canada in 1988, as an experiment, and its worked very well.

    Bids are opened up to private companies covering a section of road, with the distance being determined by the terrain and other factors, and the contract lasting five years, I believe. It has saved the province a great deal of money and they no longer have to be concerned with government unions shutting down the entire highway system. It is the government though who inspects the roads, and handles the bids, to ensure the job is done properly.
    Well it doesn't sound like the best method of privatizing a road, but private maintenance of a road is much better that public employees at the helm.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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