Page 33 of 38 FirstFirst ... 233132333435 ... LastLast
Results 321 to 330 of 379

Thread: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

  1. #321
    User
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Last Seen
    07-12-14 @ 01:31 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    89

    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    There are ways around eminent domain, such as paying people what they want or going around a property that is demanding too much, or going above or below said property.
    Who says that people will sell at reasonable prices? What if someone's property has sentimental value and won't sell for less than 5x its value? What if a person simply wants the project dead? The proposed line between San Francisco and San Jose is 99% on government land, but occasionally it will need to take a few feet of backyard or straighten a curve. Without eminent domain, one person could force the route to attempt to purchase land from dozens of people on the oppose side of the corridor. If two people on opposite sides oppose this, the project is dead, as the required curves are so large it would decimate whatever neighborhood it passes through while circumventing the troublesome properties. I'm not willing to give veto power over a project like this to every Dick and Jane along the route. It would have as disastrous an effect as giving veto power to every representative in congress.

    Air rights would still require consent. Subterranean easements would be easier to obtain, but for one above-ground hold out, it would require subterranean construction for great distances in either direction (more if a creek or river is nearby). And earth movement is ridiculously expensive. For one 1.8 mile alignment of the SF-SJ route, a 20' aerial viaduct would cost $265M. A tunnel would cost $894M.

    What sane businessman would want to get involved in this? The businessman should find an easier field to make money in.

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Probably not, because if that started happening then another road would be built to bypass that or the San Diego port would have rules stipulated in a contract with that road company demanding well-maintained roads.
    Another road gets built? At what cost to the San Diego port? And you think the government is inefficient? Two roads for the demand of one?

    Why does the port get to have a contract with the road operator? Does everyone get a contract?

    My point is that transportation, like defense, is so important to the continued success of this nation, that it mustn't be allowed to fall into hostile/disinterested hands, lest we see how damaging the transportation equivalent of an Enron/WorldCom scam is. If that means a little inefficiency here and there I'm okay with it. I view it as the cost of stability.

  2. #322
    Disappointed Evolutionist
    Catawba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Last Seen
    05-28-13 @ 08:15 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    27,254

    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    During that time period, serving in the militia wasn't much different than jury duty is, today. Very few of the state militias during the Rev War even saw action.

    Is jury duty voluntary or mandatory?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  3. #323
    Sage
    SheWolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:01 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    24,446

    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Ever heard of the Transcontinental Railroad? What about the whole railroad system built before the Civil War?
    Yes, I have heard of it... just not sure how you can say the government was not involved in constructing it
    Last edited by SheWolf; 02-20-11 at 02:30 AM.

  4. #324
    Sage
    SheWolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:01 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    24,446

    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Who's going to protect us when there is too much government coercion? Net loss for liberty.
    This is a funny question...

    You're only concerned about too much government coercion, but not government coercion in general... The same person will protect you in both cases, you. The government won't and corporations won't either...

  5. #325
    Sage
    SheWolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:01 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    24,446

    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Coercion is the opposite of liberty, so American has a point. Coercion to combat coercion is still coercion. If your moral code is anti-coercion, then you have a problem.
    so are you an anarchist?

  6. #326
    Traditionalist
    phattonez's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Last Seen
    12-05-17 @ 03:45 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    20,072

    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    so are you an anarchist?
    The world is anarchy. When you go above the national level, what exactly is controlling the interaction between nations? There is no world government. The great facade is in thinking that we do not live in an anarchist society at some level.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  7. #327
    Traditionalist
    phattonez's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Last Seen
    12-05-17 @ 03:45 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    20,072

    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    You tell me? You are the one in a moral quandry over government coercion.
    The state is an immoral institution.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  8. #328
    Traditionalist
    phattonez's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Last Seen
    12-05-17 @ 03:45 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    20,072

    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by TitusAndronicus View Post
    Who says that people will sell at reasonable prices?
    Define reasonable.

    What if someone's property has sentimental value and won't sell for less than 5x its value?
    Eminent domain ignores subjective value and so has stolen billions if not trillions of dollars from innocent homeowners.

    What if a person simply wants the project dead? The proposed line between San Francisco and San Jose is 99% on government land, but occasionally it will need to take a few feet of backyard or straighten a curve. Without eminent domain, one person could force the route to attempt to purchase land from dozens of people on the oppose side of the corridor. If two people on opposite sides oppose this, the project is dead, as the required curves are so large it would decimate whatever neighborhood it passes through while circumventing the troublesome properties. I'm not willing to give veto power over a project like this to every Dick and Jane along the route. It would have as disastrous an effect as giving veto power to every representative in congress.
    If you own property, do you own all the land above and below your property? No, you only own the land. So you can go below or you can go above (within reason of course, and so I would assume without eminent domain the standard would be below ground).

    Air rights would still require consent. Subterranean easements would be easier to obtain, but for one above-ground hold out, it would require subterranean construction for great distances in either direction (more if a creek or river is nearby). And earth movement is ridiculously expensive. For one 1.8 mile alignment of the SF-SJ route, a 20' aerial viaduct would cost $265M. A tunnel would cost $894M.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  9. #329
    Traditionalist
    phattonez's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Last Seen
    12-05-17 @ 03:45 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    20,072

    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by TitusAndronicus View Post
    Another road gets built? At what cost to the San Diego port? And you think the government is inefficient? Two roads for the demand of one?
    Government cannot perform economic calculation because they do not look for profit. Hence for them it is impossible to tell what is worth it and what is not. There are probably hundreds of thousands of miles of road that should not have been built.

    For such a rare occurrence to happen in the free market situation requiring another road is comparatively not as a big a deal.

    Remember, perfect is not an option.

    Why does the port get to have a contract with the road operator? Does everyone get a contract?
    If they are building on your land then they need a contract, wouldn't they?

    My point is that transportation, like defense, is so important to the continued success of this nation, that it mustn't be allowed to fall into hostile/disinterested hands, lest we see how damaging the transportation equivalent of an Enron/WorldCom scam is. If that means a little inefficiency here and there I'm okay with it. I view it as the cost of stability.
    It's not a little inefficiency, it's a lot. From bloated contracts to wasteful projects, we waste many resources on roads. And then government does not even maintain those roads well which creates a huge cost to drivers who have to fix their cars as a result. Free competition would see better ways to handle traffic (such as clearing accidents faster, congestion pricing, fences to avoid rubberneckers, etc.) and more reasonable contracts, and more capacity. Do you realize that there has not been a new freeway built in Los Angeles since 1993 (except for a small extension near the fringes of the county). Do you know how much the population has grown since then? Rail projects have been terrible in terms of ridership per capita because Los Angeles is too sprawled out, plus the lines have been politically motivated rather than based on demand. The cost of government ownership of roads in this city has been enormous. I'm tired of it. By any measure private ownership would be much, much better.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  10. #330
    Disappointed Evolutionist
    Catawba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Last Seen
    05-28-13 @ 08:15 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    27,254

    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    The state is an immoral institution.
    Since it represents us, that pretty much goes without saying doesn't it?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

Page 33 of 38 FirstFirst ... 233132333435 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •