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Thread: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Who's going to protect us when there is too much government coercion? Net loss for liberty.
    Are you trying to tell me that corporations protect us from government coercion? Net fail for your argument.

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by TitusAndronicus View Post
    I don't think the Transcontinental RR is an example that supports your cause. A Congressional Act founded the two companies to construct the railroad, funded by government bonds (thus risk-free for investors) and free land.
    I'll concede that it was a bad example, but there were plenty of other examples I provided.

    And in reference to the other railroads, nearly every time a pre-Civil War railroad was built, it essentially created a monopoly on fast travel to or between locations with the added bonuses of year-round operation and greater safety. Even this was not enough sometimes.
    What do you mean this was not enough? A very large system was built entirely from private enterprise. Competition today would be multiple times greater what it was back then.

    Original Intent Treatise - Issues of Federal Jurisdiction

    We have since grown to the point that there is nowhere you could build a HSR line and have demand be price inelastic. The incentive to construct railroads in the 19th century far exceeds that of today for this reason.
    Because of government subsidizing the competition!

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    "So-called" robber barons? Now that's hilarious.
    Few and far between, except of course for those who were granted small monopolies from the government.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Few and far between, except of course for those who were granted small monopolies from the government.
    All elite are, by definition, "few and far between." Try again.

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    And corporate coercion, as we have seen it, far outstrips government coercion.
    It's the same thing.

    Nonsense. This sort of mindless distrust for government is not helpful. Japan is a model that shows high speed rail can be run effectively by government. If this is your best argument, sir, you have failed miserably. I happily accept your de facto concession.
    And the rest of their economy is in the tank, so what? The point is that economic calculation cannot be done when you take price and profit out of the equation, which is what any system run by government does. For instance, you say Japan is a model of success, but maybe they should have more roads as they would be more profitable. But you can't prove it either way because there is government control. We should not support more government control because it is what the market would do anyway. We should always strive toward less government as it will always be the more ideal situation. Anything in the opposite direction hurts our ultimate goals.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    All elite are, by definition, "few and far between." Try again.
    No, a robber baron is a completely subjective term. You tell me how companies can monopolize anything without government aid and why I should support government breaking up these monopolies if they exist.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Are you trying to tell me that corporations protect us from government coercion? Net fail for your argument.
    No, I'm not. That's my point: "Who's going to protect us from the government?".
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    What do you mean this was not enough? A very large system was built entirely from private enterprise. Competition today would be multiple times greater what it was back then.
    To clarify, by "Even that was not enough sometimes." (I should have used a colon at the end) I meant to point to the quote indicating that often the railroads prospered (not that a many of them didn't find ways to go broke) as a result of state and federal sponsored monopolies.

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Because of government subsidizing the competition!
    I agree. Where you and I differ is that I don't have a problem with subsidizing HSR construction in addition to (or better yet, in place of), existing transportation alternatives. Given complete control I would phase in gas tax increases, change it to a VMT (Vehicle Miles Traveled) tax, toll the interstates, and build HSR between high volume air markets. HSR would be run by a government owned railway company, provided it could make an operating profit. If not it would be sold to a private company. I don't think the ideal transportation subsidization situation is what we have today or pure profit driven private ownership of transportation links. It's somewhere in between. That's where I would like for us to move.
    Last edited by TitusAndronicus; 02-19-11 at 06:10 PM.

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by TitusAndronicus View Post
    To clarify, by "Even that was not enough sometimes." (I should have used a colon at the end) I meant to point to the quote indicating that often the railroads prospered (not that a many of them didn't find ways to go broke) as a result of state and federal sponsored monopolies.



    I agree. Where you and I differ is that I don't have a problem with subsidizing HSR construction in addition to (or better yet, in place of), existing transportation alternatives. Given complete control I would phase in gas tax increases, change it to a VMT (Vehicle Miles Traveled) tax, toll the interstates, and build HSR between high volume air markets. HSR would be run by a government owned railway company, provided it could make an operating profit. If not it would be sold to a private company. I don't think the ideal transportation subsidization situation is what we have today or pure profit driven private ownership of transportation links. It's somewhere in between. That's where I would like for us to move.
    What's wrong with "pure profit driven private ownership of transportation links"?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Are you trying to tell me that corporations protect us from government coercion? Net fail for your argument.
    Are you telling me that govt coercion means liberty?
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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