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Thread: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

  1. #251
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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Fighting fire with fire only gives you a bigger fire.
    Not always. Fire fighters literally fight fire with fire all the time, especially to control wildfires. Ever heard of a controlled burn?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    No. I want an entirely free transportation industry.
    Well, you can wish in one hand and you know what you can do in the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Mind elaborating on where you think the government should grow or at least not shrink?
    I think it should primarily shrink. We should shrink the corporate welfare-state.

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    So the 1800s, when we had a relatively free market, that wasn't the result of people sticking to their principles and advocating small government anywhere and everywhere? It wasn't when we started making exceptions that we began our precipitous decline to economic fascism?
    There is no such thing as a relatively free market. A market is either free or it isn't. It does not take a numerically large number of government regulations to radically alter the course of a market. Only a few minor instance of government intervention, in the wrong places, can have unjust consequence on a tremendous scale. Just witness all the free enterprise that is being held back by special interests as we speak.

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Obviously, you don't seem to read my posts much. I'm saying that this corporatist economy came about because we had a free market system and made a ton of exceptions for the common good. It was this compromise that brought us to the system we have today.
    Easy, tiger. I'm familiar with your posts, I think you have a good head on your shoulders. But I think you have also swallowed a little bit too much of the Republicans-coopting-Libertarians kool-aid.

    Libertopia ain't happening. Compromise is all we've got. So instead of holding our breath for a pure free market, and instead of buying into Republican talking points that promise a free market that isn't really free at all, why not observe the situation objectively, and apply the noncoercion maxim to all the factors.

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Murray Rothbard (yeah, I read him too) had a quote in For a New Liberty about how Libertarians to reach their goal should always talk about their ultimate goals, and always support goals toward that end and never in the opposite direction.
    I agree. One of those ultimate goals needs to be keeping corporations in check with an eye toward breaking their corrupt hold on government.

  2. #252
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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Not always. Fire fighters literally fight fire with fire all the time, especially to control wildfires. Ever heard of a controlled burn?
    The analogy is starting to outlive its usefulness. Let's move on to the real discussion.

    Well, you can wish in one hand and you know what you can do in the other.
    There is no way to calcualte whether something is worth it or not in this transportation industry.

    I think it should primarily shrink. We should shrink the corporate welfare-state.
    But not the programs that you like? What about the programs that Bob likes, and Jim likes, etc. Why should the exception be made for you and not them?

    There is no such thing as a relatively free market. A market is either free or it isn't. It does not take a numerically large number of government regulations to radically alter the course of a market. Only a few minor instance of government intervention, in the wrong places, can have unjust consequence on a tremendous scale. Just witness all the free enterprise that is being held back by special interests as we speak.
    Arguably it got worse and worse after the 1800s.

    Easy, tiger. I'm familiar with your posts, I think you have a good head on your shoulders. But I think you have also swallowed a little bit too much of the Republicans-coopting-Libertarians kool-aid.

    Libertopia ain't happening. Compromise is all we've got. So instead of holding our breath for a pure free market, and instead of buying into Republican talking points that promise a free market that isn't really free at all, why not observe the situation objectively, and apply the noncoercion maxim to all the factors.
    That "non-coercion maxim" would tell me to never support any kind of government growth.

    I agree. One of those ultimate goals needs to be keeping corporations in check with an eye toward breaking their corrupt hold on government.
    And it should involve never supporting new government programs even if they would imitate a free market. Government growth just means more coercion.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  3. #253
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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    The analogy is starting to outlive its usefulness. Let's move on to the real discussion.
    It's only outlived it's usefulness to you, buddy. It makes my point quite clearly. Corporatist corruption is running our economy into the ground, and some of its grotesque manifestations can be seen in its manipulation of government to favor obsolete technology like gas. As a result truly efficient technology like solar, wind and high speed rail fall by the wayside. Once again, this is not the result of a free market, or a semi-free market, but a totally corrupt market. That's the fire.

    Now, it is a compromise on libertarian principles to use tax money for a high speed rail system, but minarchy itself is a compromise. If you are not willing to compromise on the noncoercion principle then you are an anarcho-capitalist, not a minarchist. If you are are minarchist, then you are necessarily a compromiser. Now that that's out of the way, we can see that rationally, a 10 billion or so investment in high speed rail is nothing compared to the trillions that corporatists thugs loot every year from us. If we can fight back using the fire of government to get high speed rail, it is a net gain for liberty.

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Arguably it got worse and worse after the 1800s.
    Except for minorities, women, homosexuals.

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    That "non-coercion maxim" would tell me to never support any kind of government growth.
    Right, but that isn't your choice. This is a binary decision. Either support corporatist corruption by denying high-speed rail, or oppose it.

    It's like the famous hypothetical from Phillipa Foot with the runaway train. You're standing at the switch. On the route the train is on now, it will kill two innocent people tied to the track. If you throw the switch, the train will take another route and hit only one person tied to the track. The train is coming at you too fast for you to untie anybody. What do you do?

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    If it was as lucrative as some have claimed, why no private interest in the job?
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    And it should involve never supporting new government programs even if they would imitate a free market. Government growth just means more coercion.
    Government coercion is of the same moral weight as corporate coercion. Like I said, slightly more government coercion will mean significant reduction in corporate coercion. Net gain for liberty.

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    If it was as lucrative as some have claimed, why no private interest in the job?
    Because the private sector has all their investments tied up with oil, and is exert corrupt influence over the government to support the old fashioned, oil based economy. Similar to the situation with those antique lightbulbs you love so much.

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Because the private sector has all their investments tied up with oil, and is exert corrupt influence over the government to support the old fashioned, oil based economy. Similar to the situation with those antique lightbulbs you love so much.


    Conspiracy nonsense.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    But not the programs that you like? What about the programs that Bob likes, and Jim likes, etc. Why should the exception be made for you and not them?
    I don't like any sort of corporate welfare.

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