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Thread: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Have you ever heard the expression, "You have to spend money to make money"?

    There is no question that high speed rail would stimulate the Florida economy (the 4th largest state economy in the country) so much it would recoup its cost pdq. Florida is stagnating because of sprawl, and high speed rail is the solution. Your argument is like refusing to buy medicine because you are saving for retirement.
    Oh dear lord...

    Im all about spending money to make money. We are talking about laying down 86 MILES OF TRACK. At a cost of 3 billion dollars. And a bullet train from Orlando to Tampa helps tourism how exactly?

    Seriously...help me understand how much this is going to cost to implement on a nationwide scale where it might be effective for people to use. I simply cannot fathom people are buying into this just because the president said it would be a good idea. So...give me something more to work with. Help me to understand how we justify taxing citizens around the country for services they wont have access to.

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by TitusAndronicus View Post
    Just so you know, New York to LA would never be considered. HSR is being considered over corridors between major cities where it can compete with flying (< 4 hours by rail). Actual considered routes:

    San Francisco/Sacramento - Los Angeles - San Diego

    Portland - Seattle - Vancouver

    Chicago Hub: lines to St. Louis, Cincinnati, Cleveland/Detroit, Minneapolis

    Boston - New York - Philadelphia - Washington

    Tampa - Orlando - Miami

    Texas "T-bone": T-shaped line connecting Dallas, Austin, San Antonio, Houston

    Transcontinental routes are being considered by no one. Even Chicago - New York is too far for HSR to be feasible.
    Which makes this even more nonsensical to me. Again...if individual cities and states want to fund it thats fine. This is just a simple minded federal 'solution' to throw at the growing unemployment problem.

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    As for private companies not being able to conduct scientific research the way government can, I have a very nice paper debunking the claim.

    The Myth of Under-provision of Science by the Free Market

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    And some good links about private development of technology, notably developments leading up to the internet and x-rays.

    Xerox and the internet
    Milestones - PARC, a Xerox company

    Goddard and the rocket
    Goddard Rocket - Milestones of Flight

    Teflon
    espacenet &mdash; Bibliographic data

    Aerogel
    Aerogel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    X-Rays
    Squire's fundamentals of radiology - Google Books

    Solvay Conference and many physics developments
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solvay_Conference
    Last edited by phattonez; 02-17-11 at 08:13 PM.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    And some good links about private development of technology, notably developments leading up to the internet and x-rays.

    Xerox and the internet
    Milestones - PARC, a Xerox company

    Goddard and the rocket
    Goddard Rocket - Milestones of Flight

    Teflon
    espacenet &mdash; Bibliographic data

    Aerogel
    Aerogel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    X-Rays
    Squire's fundamentals of radiology - Google Books

    Solvay Conference and many physics developments
    Solvay Conference - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    The internet was conceived by scientists wishing to share data faster. And all these things are specific areas of research, they are not base scientific research. As it stands, the specialized research can be done in companies once the base research necessary to develop the technology has been achieved. That's how a lot of the technical companies come to be in fact. There are many scientists, grad students, post docs, etc. who work on something in academia, develop some good techniques for AR coatings or laser doubling. When they leave, they start up small start up companies which focus on these specific forms of research. They are able to take the that base research already done and refine it into something which becomes a consumer product. New Focus, Sigma, Spectra Physics, etc. all started out in that manner.

    Yes, specialized research can be done by private companies once the base research and discoveries have been made in academia, funded by the government. This is one way in which government and the private sector interact.
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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Which makes this even more nonsensical to me. Again...if individual cities and states want to fund it thats fine. This is just a simple minded federal 'solution' to throw at the growing unemployment problem.
    Is congestion at O'Hare just a Chicago problem? Or do delays ripple through the entire air transportation network affecting us all? In addition to its other benefits, HSR is good at eliminating less profitable short haul air corridors (that air carriers loathe) and freeing up space on the tarmac.

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Whovian View Post
    Have you ever heard the expression 'If you can't pay for it, you can't afford it'?
    Businesses borrow money all the time to finance long-term assets, as well they should. Are you against all corporate finance too?
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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The internet was conceived by scientists wishing to share data faster Al Gore...
    corrected.

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Whovian View Post
    corrected.
    Oh come on man. I know it is kind of funny (I think it was even derived from an SNL skit), but Al Gore clearly did not say he invented the internet or any other silly statement like that. Poor guy won the popular vote and did not get elected. Can't that torment him enough?

    Poor Al Gore. He just wants to catch ManBearPig!!

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Oh dear lord...

    Im all about spending money to make money. We are talking about laying down 86 MILES OF TRACK. At a cost of 3 billion dollars. And a bullet train from Orlando to Tampa helps tourism how exactly?

    Seriously...help me understand how much this is going to cost to implement on a nationwide scale where it might be effective for people to use. I simply cannot fathom people are buying into this just because the president said it would be a good idea. So...give me something more to work with. Help me to understand how we justify taxing citizens around the country for services they wont have access to.
    OK, I'll give it a shot:

    According to the article at the beginning of this thread, Obama is calling for $53 billion over the course of six years to develop a high speed rail system. Presumably this wouldn't be the TOTAL cost of the system...just the beginnings of one. But it's a fair enough estimate of the per-year cost. So let's say it costs $9 billion per year, and let's assume that after we finish the beginnings of the system, we continue to spend the $9 billion per year until we have a nationwide high-speed rail system akin to the interstate highway system.

    Now, what would the total benefits of that be? This is difficult to calculate, because the benefits are ill-defined. The primary ones that I can think of are: Reduced congestion at airports, reduced congestion on highways, reduced maintenance of highways, reduced air pollution, reduced traffic accidents, reduced costs for TSA, and reduced costs for transporting freight (and therefore reduced prices for consumer goods).

    I haven't done the calculations, but I would have to assume that all of those societal benefits combined are worth far more than $9 billion per year, which is, after all, merely a rounding error on the government's pocketbook.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 02-17-11 at 11:11 PM.
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