Page 22 of 38 FirstFirst ... 12202122232432 ... LastLast
Results 211 to 220 of 379

Thread: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

  1. #211
    Sage
    Ikari's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    12-08-17 @ 01:05 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    54,124

    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    It's owned now by the OCTA, but was originally built and run by a private company. Larger projects are harder to come by (though there are decent-lengthed tunnels in Australia and France that I'm aware of) because government pretty much has a monopoly on interstates because they have so little demand compared to intra-city roads and they are subsidized so much.
    These things tend to be funded by government. Government can hire private companies to build stuff for them if necessary. But the point remains, they could not build and maintain by their own finances alone the infrastructure necessary to create something on the order of the national interstate system we currently have. Only government is long term stable enough, and isolated from profit concerns well enough to construct such a large, aggregated system.

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Celera Corporation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - This is the non-government entity that also sequenced the human genome, but at a tremendous fraction of the cost and much faster.
    And without base scientific research leading up to the point of being able to identify genomes, the technology necessary to do so, etc. they could not have done it. For them to pick up that very specialized and limited field, there was a wealth of money and effort that went before it to get to the point where a company can pick up that specialized field.

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Great, but so what? Your'e not proving that private companies cannot do this.
    They can't do it. Scientific research takes years, decades, even more sometimes to net out information. Private industry cannot operate on that time scale without profit. Government can. Which is why government does it and private industry does not.

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    But government cannot decide what is profitable and what is not. Government, on the whole, is a tremendous waste of resources because of this.
    We gain a lot of benefit from them doing so. Do you like your cell phone? You know where it came from? Sure, once transistors were figured out, transmission of radiation understood, computing technology necessary for cell technology a private company took over and invested time and research into developing cell phones as a consumer product. But it didn't poof into existence. The base research needed to get to that point was tremendous. Some of that research panned out, some didn't. But we do not have the benefit of hindsight when making these decisions for funding.

    The end is the same. Scientific research is a net HUGE plus for all of us. We all derive benefit from engaging in it. But it is not necessarily profitable, and it's on time scales far too long for any private company to consider. Yet even without it being profitable, it provides massive benefits to us all. That is why government is government and business is business.

    I understand the underlying philosophy of thinking government should be more responsible and more "business like". But all those underlying premises fall victim to fallacy of aggregation. You can think of specialized cases when this can work out better for private industry. But if you aggregate it over the whole, and see the system for what it is; it becomes obvious that private business cannot support this. It can only be supported by something with functionally infinite pockets and infinite time; that is government.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  2. #212
    Traditionalist
    phattonez's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Last Seen
    12-05-17 @ 03:45 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    20,072

    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    These things tend to be funded by government. Government can hire private companies to build stuff for them if necessary. But the point remains, they could not build and maintain by their own finances alone the infrastructure necessary to create something on the order of the national interstate system we currently have. Only government is long term stable enough, and isolated from profit concerns well enough to construct such a large, aggregated system.
    The New York subway system was a long term, stable infrastructure system that worked quite well until it was taken over. And there were interstate railways long before the interstate highway system was started, and these were both done by private companies. Why are you ignoring these facts?

    And without base scientific research leading up to the point of being able to identify genomes, the technology necessary to do so, etc. they could not have done it. For them to pick up that very specialized and limited field, there was a wealth of money and effort that went before it to get to the point where a company can pick up that specialized field.
    You're only pointing to the situation, you are not proving that without government that it would not have been able to reach that stage in research.

    They can't do it. Scientific research takes years, decades, even more sometimes to net out information. Private industry cannot operate on that time scale without profit. Government can. Which is why government does it and private industry does not.
    Private companies don't build anything on such a long time scale? Do you know how long it took for the Dulles Greenway to open after investments were acquired? What about the First Transcontinental Railroad? There are plenty of examples out there of companies investing in things that take a long time to be profitable. You just have to open your eyes to see them.

    We gain a lot of benefit from them doing so. Do you like your cell phone? You know where it came from? Sure, once transistors were figured out, transmission of radiation understood, computing technology necessary for cell technology a private company took over and invested time and research into developing cell phones as a consumer product. But it didn't poof into existence. The base research needed to get to that point was tremendous. Some of that research panned out, some didn't. But we do not have the benefit of hindsight when making these decisions for funding.

    The end is the same. Scientific research is a net HUGE plus for all of us. We all derive benefit from engaging in it. But it is not necessarily profitable, and it's on time scales far too long for any private company to consider. Yet even without it being profitable, it provides massive benefits to us all. That is why government is government and business is business.

    I understand the underlying philosophy of thinking government should be more responsible and more "business like". But all those underlying premises fall victim to fallacy of aggregation. You can think of specialized cases when this can work out better for private industry. But if you aggregate it over the whole, and see the system for what it is; it becomes obvious that private business cannot support this. It can only be supported by something with functionally infinite pockets and infinite time; that is government.
    Blah blah blah, all you do is point out government innovations, but you have done NOTHING to prove that these things would not have happened without government funding.

    By the way, governments do not have infinite pockets and infinite time. Scarcity is a reality for governments and corporations alike.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  3. #213
    Sage
    VanceMack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:09 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    54,745

    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    But the notion of "paying for itself" or "being profitable" is a red herring, because that's not the point of government services. The point of government services is to provide a benefit to society. I do not know if other AMTRAK routes provide enough of an economic benefit to society to justify their costs...but I do know that you can't measure that strictly by looking at the government's balance sheets.
    A faster train would have more demand, because highway travel would no longer be viewed as a cheaper substitute.
    I hate to be a killjoy...but that government service mentality is unsustainable. Its getting worse not better daily. The projected cost for a rail system from Orlando to Tampa is 3 billion. Thats a grand total of 85 miles. My calculator started smoking when I extrapolated costs across the country for major hubs. TAXPAYERS have to foot that bill...and for most part we arent talking about taxpayers that would or even could use the service. Pick a line...what do you want to do...New York to LA? Stops in...what...5 major cities along the way? At what cost? Im sorry...but unless you can come up with a way to pay for it that doesnt add a few trillion to the debt and maintenance cost for future decades...what are we even talking about?

  4. #214
    Sage
    Guy Incognito's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Last Seen
    12-02-17 @ 07:43 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    11,216

    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    My calculator started smoking when I extrapolated costs across the country for major hubs. TAXPAYERS have to foot that bill...
    Have you ever heard the expression, "You have to spend money to make money"?

    There is no question that high speed rail would stimulate the Florida economy (the 4th largest state economy in the country) so much it would recoup its cost pdq. Florida is stagnating because of sprawl, and high speed rail is the solution. Your argument is like refusing to buy medicine because you are saving for retirement.
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 02-17-11 at 07:28 PM.

  5. #215
    Traditionalist
    phattonez's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Last Seen
    12-05-17 @ 03:45 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    20,072

    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Have you ever heard the expression, "You have to spend money to make money"?

    There is no question that high speed rail would stimulate the Florida economy (the 4th largest state economy in the country) so much it would recoup its cost pdq. Florida is stagnating because of sprawl, and high speed rail is the solution. Your argument is like refusing to buy medicine because you are saving for retirement.
    But is it worth the resources? And you know that government will screw it up with bloated contracts, cost overruns, etc. This government control of transportation needs to end. They have failed miserably by any measure.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  6. #216
    Traditionalist
    phattonez's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Last Seen
    12-05-17 @ 03:45 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    20,072

    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    And as for companies not being able to take on long-term projects, ask yourself how long your home loan is for. Someone must have put up the money for something that won't be repaid for 10, 20, 30 years. That's a very long-term investment, yet private companies do it ALL THE TIME. And it's not just homes either. The amount of money in these types of bonds must be astronomical.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  7. #217
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    dimensionally transcendental
    Last Seen
    08-15-11 @ 04:31 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    7,153

    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Have you ever heard the expression, "You have to spend money to make money"?
    Have you ever heard the expression 'If you can't pay for it, you can't afford it'?

  8. #218
    User
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Last Seen
    07-12-14 @ 01:31 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    89

    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Pick a line...what do you want to do...New York to LA? Stops in...what...5 major cities along the way? At what cost?
    Just so you know, New York to LA would never be considered. HSR is being considered over corridors between major cities where it can compete with flying (< 4 hours by rail). Actual considered routes:

    San Francisco/Sacramento - Los Angeles - San Diego

    Portland - Seattle - Vancouver

    Chicago Hub: lines to St. Louis, Cincinnati, Cleveland/Detroit, Minneapolis

    Boston - New York - Philadelphia - Washington

    Tampa - Orlando - Miami

    Texas "T-bone": T-shaped line connecting Dallas, Austin, San Antonio, Houston

    Transcontinental routes are being considered by no one. Even Chicago - New York is too far for HSR to be feasible.

  9. #219
    Sage
    Ikari's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    12-08-17 @ 01:05 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    54,124

    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    And as for companies not being able to take on long-term projects, ask yourself how long your home loan is for. Someone must have put up the money for something that won't be repaid for 10, 20, 30 years. That's a very long-term investment, yet private companies do it ALL THE TIME. And it's not just homes either. The amount of money in these types of bonds must be astronomical.
    One home. OK, you're still falling to the fallacy of aggregation. Companies can borrow large amounts of money, but a company must make money to remain a company (or get bailed out by the government, it seems to be a particularly popular pastime these days). Scientific research exists on a monetary and temporal scale which is out of reach of companies on the base scientific level. Not everything pans out to a profitable product. Hell even pharmaceutical companies have problems with this. They spend tons of money on research and not all (most in fact) drugs pan out and are able to be marketed towards consumers. And that's a very specific and isolated field of study. And it still wouldn't exist without the base funding provided by government. A company must post earnings, if it doesn't it will begin to lose money, it's stocks can fall, and it can go belly up. The government does not tend to go belly up if it doesn't post profits for several quarters. The government is stable over the time time scales and has the aggregated monetary power at hand to take care of the aggregated system at large. Base scientific study is necessary, but let's face it; it's not all marketable. Nor does it all end up the way people envision it will when they start. Still, there is necessity for it because there is a lot of high end benefit we reap by continually investigating base science.

    Companies exist in a different world than government. Because of it, they have different concerns and needs. These concerns and needs make it incredibly impractical for investing into base scientific research. It may be able to happen in specialized areas with isolated companies; but on the whole it cannot exist in that manner. Without government funding, base scientific research would not be funded at the level it needs to be funded at in order to continually pull the benefits we all extract from the system.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  10. #220
    Traditionalist
    phattonez's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Last Seen
    12-05-17 @ 03:45 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    20,072

    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    One home. OK, you're still falling to the fallacy of aggregation.
    One home? The average home price in 2008 (from what I can find) was $292,600. There are 129.4 million homes. $37,862,440,000,000 invested in homes. It's an overestimate, $32 trillion is much higher than what is actually invested in homes, but consider that there are also investments in commercial properties and other kinds of bonds and you have a tremendous amount of money invested in bonds that will not mature sometimes for decades. Yet it is done on a tremendous scale. So let's throw away your time-scale argument for good now.

    Companies can borrow large amounts of money, but a company must make money to remain a company (or get bailed out by the government, it seems to be a particularly popular pastime these days). Scientific research exists on a monetary and temporal scale which is out of reach of companies on the base scientific level. Not everything pans out to a profitable product. Hell even pharmaceutical companies have problems with this. They spend tons of money on research and not all (most in fact) drugs pan out and are able to be marketed towards consumers. And that's a very specific and isolated field of study. And it still wouldn't exist without the base funding provided by government. A company must post earnings, if it doesn't it will begin to lose money, it's stocks can fall, and it can go belly up. The government does not tend to go belly up if it doesn't post profits for several quarters. The government is stable over the time time scales and has the aggregated monetary power at hand to take care of the aggregated system at large. Base scientific study is necessary, but let's face it; it's not all marketable. Nor does it all end up the way people envision it will when they start. Still, there is necessity for it because there is a lot of high end benefit we reap by continually investigating base science.

    Companies exist in a different world than government. Because of it, they have different concerns and needs. These concerns and needs make it incredibly impractical for investing into base scientific research. It may be able to happen in specialized areas with isolated companies; but on the whole it cannot exist in that manner. Without government funding, base scientific research would not be funded at the level it needs to be funded at in order to continually pull the benefits we all extract from the system.
    Who's to say it wouldn't work for research? The easy way to do it would be to diversify. Don't just be a research company, also make money from other places. A company that engineers buildings and other things could take some of its profit and divert that to research and development. Why couldn't this work on a large scale? The incentive would be huge since the profits would be immeasurable.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

Page 22 of 38 FirstFirst ... 12202122232432 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •