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Thread: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    I'm just enamored that a politician is giving money back to the Fed. That's like finding out Bigfoot is not only real, but is CPA living in Orange County Oregon and grows his own hybrid pot.
    Well, that may be the case, but Florida also suffers for it.

    See, in Florida, the major urban population centers are spread out from each other. Also, Florida's shape makes it awkward to travel between, especially from the panhandle to South Florida. It can take over 4 hours to get from the Miami area up to the Orlando area.

    The problem with Florida is that everything is on the perimeter. The panhandle is thicker with cities, and just south of that there is a ring - Orlando, West Palm, Ft. Lauderdale, Miami, Ft. Myers, Tampa, Gainesville, and back to Orlando - where the heaviest urban centers are. But within that ring is the rural area of small cities.

    Having a high speed rail line could help the people living in those rural areas to access those major urban areas. Not only with this open up Florida's economy, as more people will have access to more types of shopping, it will also help Floridians get access to more job opportunities, as they can travel across the state easier.

    Also, Florida has absolutely NO real public transportation system. This despite the fact that Florida has an incredibly large population of the elderly who could benefit from it since they may be too elderly or too disabled to drive on their own.

    And please remember - Florida is NOT Yankee-land. If you do not have your own car, you are stuck wherever you are.

    And speaking of other transportation projects in Florida, also keep in mind that the Port of Miami is the only place on the U.S.' East Coast that can be enlarged enough to allow new supercargo ships coming in from the Panama Canal to dock and unload their cargo. It's one of three possibilities, but the other two aren't able to. But Rick Scott is also preventing any spending on that because of budget cuts. Despite the fact that it affects not only the Florida economy adversely but also the economy of the rest of the U.S.

    So when it comes to high speed rail, I don't think it should be built up in states that already have a dense transportation infrastructure, specifically in the Northeast. Rather, I really do think it should be built up in states without it, especially in the Southeast. By building it up and giving the people the option of using it, I think more will take advantage of it, especially in this recession where people can't afford cars but could afford train trips to get around.

    So, in short, I don't think it makes much sense to spend money on transportation infrastructure in states that already have it - however, I think federal money should be spent on transportation infrastructure in states that currently lack it.
    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by TitusAndronicus View Post
    Federal grants. Just like every other transportation project ever, from the Erie Canal to Interstate 49.

    The main funding difference between HSR and I-49 in Louisiana is that user fees only pay for about half of the operations and maintenance of the road. HSR runs an operating profit on user fees alone.


    Subsidyscope.org — Transportation: Analysis Finds Shifting Trends in Highway Funding: User Fees Make Up Decreasing Share
    Federal grants = user fees.

    Sure, it gets filtered through a bureaucracy first.

    But it’s still the same source of funds, albeit from the whole country instead of a more specific area, in the case of "Federal grants".
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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Do you even know why the interstate system was built?
    National security. To evacuate people after a nuclear attack. The exact same justification which could be used for having a high speed rail system.

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Well, sorta. Christie just said no to the NJ/NY plan, because NJ wouldn't be able to hold up it's end of the costs. Kesich I'm not sure... not familiar with what happened there.
    And you know what? I support that.

    Because correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't New Jersey and New York have ample mass transit already.

    But Florida barely has a mass transit at all, and if there is any it's only within cities - nothing to connect the biggest cities with each other. And that kind of intrastate - rather than intracity - transportation system could seriously help the Florida economy in any number of ways.

    So can you understand why I feel it's a matter of fiscal responsibility to refuse federal money in states with major public transportation systems but should be promoted in states currently without it?
    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    National security. To evacuate people after a nuclear attack. The exact same justification which could be used for having a high speed rail system.
    You couldn't be more wrong.
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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Then let the states work it out without the Fed shoving money they borrowed down their throats to put it in. If Colorado Nevada and California want to support a high speed rail line, they shoudl work it out and pay for their respective amounts if it makes sense to them.
    I agree that states should bear at least SOME of the burden, but such a major undertaking requires federal coordination just like the interstate highway system did. Furthermore, Colorado, Nevada, and California would not be the only ones to benefit from a train through those states. Federal funding would reduce free riders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham
    This whole, "it benefits society" nonsense is creepy.
    Umm providing societal benefits that the market cannot provide is the fundamental reason we HAVE a government. It is, in the most basic sense, the rationale for virtually everything the government does. If that's "creepy nonsense," I hear Somalia is lovely this time of year.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham
    (Oh and btw, we all know we can't afford it right now right?)
    If the societal benefits exceed the societal costs (which is not the same as government benefits/costs) then of course we can afford it, because the cost of NOT having it is higher.
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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Roads aren't a, "subsidy". Sorry.
    Road operations are subsidized. The Federal Highway Administration (the group in your definition) is funneled cash payment in the interests of the public and the economy.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    At that point, it will be the giant waste of tax dollars that I expect it to be.
    HSR in its best form is targeted at airport relief. Currently the San Francisco-Los Angeles air route is the busiest in the country, and California airports are at capacity. We could spend money on a HSR network that allows for air carriers to drop the LA-SF route in favor of more profitable long haul routes, or we could expand the airports to equivalent capacity for more money.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Again, I haven't recieved a ****ing penny from the government to keep my trucks on the road.
    You haven't been given a penny, you've been given 49% of a road in the form of maintenance and operations. Without which, I-10 would turn to a lunar landscape and your trucks would be breaking axles. Sounds like a financial benefit to me. Would you still rather have that penny?

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I agree that states should bear at least SOME of the burden, but such a major undertaking requires federal coordination just like the interstate highway system did. Furthermore, Colorado, Nevada, and California would not be the only ones to benefit from a train through those states. Federal funding would reduce free riders.



    Umm providing societal benefits that the market cannot provide is the fundamental reason we HAVE a government. It is, in the most basic sense, the rationale for virtually everything the government does. If that's "creepy nonsense," I hear Somalia is lovely this time of year.



    If the societal benefits exceed the societal costs (which is not the same as government benefits/costs) then of course we can afford it, because the cost of NOT having it is higher.
    Who gets to make that decision? All the folks that are in favor of it? or just the politicians that have their personal cash invested in it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    You couldn't be more wrong.
    Interstate Highways - An Overview of Interstate Highways

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    Re: Florida scraps high-speed rail plan pushed by Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Umm providing societal benefits that the market cannot provide is the fundamental reason we HAVE a government. It is, in the most basic sense, the rationale for virtually everything the government does. If that's "creepy nonsense," I hear Somalia is lovely this time of year.
    Nope. The entire reason we have a government is to protect the people from outside threats. Try again..

    And high speed rail specially in certain areas in florida could be done by the private sector.

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