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Thread: South Dakota Justifiable Homicide Bill Under Fire as Critics Say It Invites Murder of

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    Re: South Dakota Justifiable Homicide Bill Under Fire as Critics Say It Invites Murde

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I would like you to reconsider this statement, as the link you yourself gave does not single out the unborn. You cited the definition of Justifiable Homicide, a definition which applies to everyone, not only the unborn.
    Please reread the bill again.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bill
    FOR AN ACT ENTITLED, An Act to expand the definition of justifiable homicide to provide for the protection of certain unborn children.
    BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF SOUTH DAKOTA:
    Section 1. That 22-16-34 be amended to read as follows:
    22-16-34. Homicide is justifiable if committed by any person while resisting any attempt to murder such person, or to harm the unborn child of such person in a manner and to a degree likely to result in the death of the unborn child, or to commit any felony upon him or her, or upon or in any dwelling house in which such person is.
    Section 2. That 22-16-35 be amended to read as follows:
    22-16-35. Homicide is justifiable if committed by any person in the lawful defense of such person, or of his or her husband, wife, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant, or the unborn child of any such enumerated person, if there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to commit a felony, or to do some great personal injury, and imminent danger of such design being accomplished.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    How is that not a perfectly rational act of any father? If the life of my son was on the line I would protect him.

    Just as the case with the Unborn Victims of Violence act of 2004, I expect both the woman and the license physician will be given a pass. However, if SD were to outlaw non-life-threatening abortion, lethal force would be authorized to protect the child.
    It may be perfectly rational to want to sell junk bonds in order to acquire wealth and never pay out to investors. But it's illegal.

    It may be perfectly rational to want to intimidate lawyers, jurors, and judges up to and including threats of bodily harm and death in order to make sure a son or daughter accused of a crime stays out of jail. But it's illegal.

    Likewise, while it may rational for a father to want to kill an abortion provider to keep the mother from aborting the unborn child, it is illegal, because a woman's right to choose trumps a father's right to kill an abortion provider to help that woman exercise her reproductive rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Please understand that "terrorism" is a very specific thing. An activist group bombing a clinic to gain a political advantage would be terrorism, but your hypothetical of a lone grieved father doing the same is not.
    Except when political activist groups support grieved fathers in bombing a clinic since he may further their political goals with impunity. Which some extremist pro-life groups may do.

    Take, for example, Scott Roeder, who shot abortion doctor George Tiller and pro-life activists tried to raise money for his legal defense by selling a manual for anti-abortion militants. The "Army of God" manual describes several ways to shut down an abortion clinic, which includes bombing.

    Again, nobody is saying that pregnant women, and those others who are able to, shouldn't be able to defend the life of the pregnant woman in order to save a wanted unborn child.

    But why should we allow a law that is written in such a slippery-slope manner that justifies violence against people who are helping a woman exercise a legal right?
    Last edited by samsmart; 02-16-11 at 06:30 AM.
    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

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    Re: South Dakota Justifiable Homicide Bill Under Fire as Critics Say It Invites Murde

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Pregnant women, having the right to bodily sovereignty, should be free to use lethal to defend themselves and their children no differently than she can use lethal force to stop a rape.
    Absolutely, but given the track record of conservatives with whipping up and rationalizing acts of political murder, there clearly needs to be a legal stipulation that the law does not permit violence against abortion providers. It's sad that it has to be stated explicitly, but the violence and inhumanity of the radical right knows no bounds.

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    Re: South Dakota Justifiable Homicide Bill Under Fire as Critics Say It Invites Murde

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    Please reread the bill again.
    I think the law says what i thought it said.

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    22-16-34. Homicide is justifiable if committed by any person while resisting any attempt to murder such person,
    That part applies to everyone...you, me, hell even the mod team.

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    or to harm the unborn child of such person in a manner and to a degree likely to result in the death of the unborn child,
    I'm tracking this is the proposed change.

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    or to commit any felony upon him or her,
    This part refers to everyone, not just the unborn.

    or upon or in any dwelling house in which such person is.
    This part regards felony against your home while you're in it; the structure, not a person.

    Section 2. That 22-16-35 be amended to read as follows:
    22-16-35. Homicide is justifiable if committed by any person [not just the unborn, but "any person"] in the lawful defense of such person [not just the unborn], or of his or her husband [who's obviously not the unborn], wife [not unborn], parent [not unborn], child [born or not, the existing definition applies to born children], master [not to be confused with "husband" ], mistress [bitches], or servant [not to be confused with "wife" ], or the unborn child of any such enumerated person, if there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to commit a felony, or to do some great personal injury, and imminent danger of such design being accomplished.
    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    It may be perfectly rational to want to sell junk bonds in order to acquire wealth and never pay out to investors. But it's illegal.

    It may be perfectly rational to want to intimidate lawyers, jurors, and judges up to and including threats of bodily harm and death in order to make sure a son or daughter accused of a crime stays out of jail. But it's illegal.

    Likewise, while it may rational for a father to want to kill an abortion provider to keep the mother from aborting the unborn child, it is illegal, because a woman's right to choose trumps a father's right to kill an abortion provider to help that woman exercise her reproductive rights.
    I hear what you're saying, but I had supposed SD made 2nd trimester abortion illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    Except when political activist groups support grieved fathers in bombing a clinic since he may further their political goals with impunity. Which some extremist pro-life groups may do.
    Tell me how this image promote women's health:


    What do you think would happen if pro-life made a similar sign with explosives in the logo? It's exactly like Black history Month is "cultural" but mention any sort of White History Month and you're a racist. Pure double standard.

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    Take, for example, Scott Roeder, who shot abortion doctor George Tiller and pro-life activists tried to raise money for his legal defense by selling a manual for anti-abortion militants. The "Army of God" manual describes several ways to shut down an abortion clinic, which includes bombing.
    Let's say this law passes as-is: Scott Roeder would still be guilty of murder because 1. Dr.Tiller had special legal authorization to conduct those abortions, and 2. you have to use lethal force in the moment someone is in immediate danger. Shooting someone well before or after the fact is not justifiable homicide no matter how you cut it.

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    Again, nobody is saying that pregnant women, and those others who are able to, shouldn't be able to defend the life of the pregnant woman in order to save a wanted unborn child.

    But why should we allow a law that is written in such a slippery-slope manner that justifies violence against people who are helping a woman exercise a legal right?
    Well, as a father, if you are jeopardizing my child's life, your life therefor has no value; but we both know the law won't pass as-is. We both know the abortion exception will be installed.
    Last edited by Jerry; 02-16-11 at 07:42 AM.

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    Re: South Dakota Justifiable Homicide Bill Under Fire as Critics Say It Invites Murde

    Quote Originally Posted by Troubadour View Post
    Absolutely, but given the track record of conservatives with whipping up and rationalizing acts of political murder, there clearly needs to be a legal stipulation that the law does not permit violence against abortion providers. It's sad that it has to be stated explicitly, but the violence and inhumanity of the radical right knows no bounds.
    It's nothing short of hypocrisy to insist that one person can kill another on a whim, but not be killed on a whim themselves.

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    Re: South Dakota Justifiable Homicide Bill Under Fire as Critics Say It Invites Murde

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    He disappeared when the cops went looking for him. He managed to stay off the grid, selling drugs, as the state couldn't find him and force him to pay child support. A few years later he OD'd on heroin.

    Boy my sis really knows how to pick'em.
    You gotta love poetic justice. Sounds like it couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.
    Quote Originally Posted by americanwoman View Post
    So there is absolutely no evidence this woman, whom you called a slut, did this but you are ready to take someone's word as evidence. Guess you don't think witch hunts have to end when it's going after the certain people.

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    Re: South Dakota Justifiable Homicide Bill Under Fire as Critics Say It Invites Murde

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    It's nothing short of hypocrisy to insist that one person can kill another on a whim, but not be killed on a whim themselves.
    A fetus is not a person. An abortion doctor is.

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    Re: South Dakota Justifiable Homicide Bill Under Fire as Critics Say It Invites Murde

    Quote Originally Posted by Troubadour View Post
    A fetus is not a person. An abortion doctor is.
    Slaves once weren't people either.

    A police K-9 is not a person, but if you kick one you are charged with assaulting a police officer.

    Corporation aren't persons either, but they have rights as persons just as the unborn have rights as persons.

    "Child" 1 and "baby" 1 have pre-birth uses.
    A fetus is a "child" 2 and a "baby" 2 is a "child", thus we can call a fetus a "baby" 3.
    Legally a "child" 4 is one's natural offspring, which is what a pregnant woman carries.
    So, a pregnant woman carries her "child", her "unborn child", her "unborn baby".
    This makes her a "parent", specifically, a mother.


    "Organism" = "a living being".
    Human DNA = "human".
    "Organism" + Human DNA = "A Human Being".


    ****
    SD is one state which authorizes the use of deadly force to stop a felony against your home. Surly we can all agree that a house is not a person.

    This demonstrates that it doesn't have to be a person in order to be something worth protecting with lethal force.
    Last edited by Jerry; 02-16-11 at 09:35 AM.

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    Re: South Dakota Justifiable Homicide Bill Under Fire as Critics Say It Invites Murde

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I think abortionists in general will oppose any law that treats a child in the womb like a person.
    I oppose any law that allows you to kill someone who is performing a legal medical procedure and call it justified.

    Don't you?
    Last edited by Deuce; 02-16-11 at 09:34 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    We have no reason not to believe him. [North Korean Dictator and Mass Murder Kim Jong-Un] has been very honest and accommodating.

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    Re: South Dakota Justifiable Homicide Bill Under Fire as Critics Say It Invites Murde

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    I oppose any law that allows you to kill someone who is performing a legal medical procedure and call it justified.

    Don't you?
    It's not a legal procedure if the unborn is protected by law. At that point it's an illegal procedure and yes lethal force is justified.

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    Re: South Dakota Justifiable Homicide Bill Under Fire as Critics Say It Invites Murde

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    It's not a legal procedure if the unborn is protected by law. At that point it's an illegal procedure and yes lethal force is justified.
    You and jamesrage are changing the subject here. What about when it is a legal procedure? You're ok with murder of the doctor then?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    We have no reason not to believe him. [North Korean Dictator and Mass Murder Kim Jong-Un] has been very honest and accommodating.

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