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Thread: South Dakota Justifiable Homicide Bill Under Fire as Critics Say It Invites Murder of

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    Re: South Dakota Justifiable Homicide Bill Under Fire as Critics Say It Invites Murde

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    Or a pregnant woman's husband tries to stop her from getting an abortion by bombing the building of the local abortion provider. Under this law, that man could, in theory, claim that he was acting in defense of the child of his pregnant wife, which is why pro-choicers have a problem with this law as written.

    I'm not saying that we should get rid of this law. Rather, I'm saying that certain specific protections should be given to abortion providers in the law to protect them from violent zealots. I hope you see the distinction.
    The law specifically says only the woman can use the affirmative defense.

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    Re: South Dakota Justifiable Homicide Bill Under Fire as Critics Say It Invites Murde

    Totally crazy, and a shameful day for America.

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    Re: South Dakota Justifiable Homicide Bill Under Fire as Critics Say It Invites Murde

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    The law specifically says only the woman can use the affirmative defense.
    Not quite.

    Here's the link to the law and it's history that was on the article:
    2011 Session - Bill History

    The original law (written 1/25/11) was written so that only a pregnant woman can use lethal force as an affirmative defense.

    2011 Session - Bill History

    But it was later amended (2/9/11) to expand it to husbands, wives, fathers, etc.

    2011 Session - Bill History

    It is this amendment that has pro-choicers worried.
    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

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    Re: South Dakota Justifiable Homicide Bill Under Fire as Critics Say It Invites Murde

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    Or a pregnant woman's husband tries to stop her from getting an abortion by bombing the building of the local abortion provider. Under this law, that man could, in theory, claim that he was acting in defense of the child of his pregnant wife, which is why pro-choicers have a problem with this law as written.

    I'm not saying that we should get rid of this law. Rather, I'm saying that certain specific protections should be given to abortion providers in the law to protect them from violent zealots. I hope you see the distinction.
    See, I read that and I think "some punk in a parking lot assaults my pregnant wife, and now I just lay him down".

    Can you give examples where ordinary citizens otherwise blow up buildings for the sake of Justifiable Homicide?

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    Re: South Dakota Justifiable Homicide Bill Under Fire as Critics Say It Invites Murde

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    Not quite.

    Here's the link to the law and it's history that was on the article:
    2011 Session - Bill History

    The original law (written 1/25/11) was written so that only a pregnant woman can use lethal force as an affirmative defense.

    2011 Session - Bill History

    But it was later amended (2/9/11) to expand it to husbands, wives, fathers, etc.

    2011 Session - Bill History

    It is this amendment that has pro-choicers worried.
    While I'm sure the legislation will be further refined, it's worth pointing out that Roe-v-Wade gives states the right to ban 2nd trimester abortion if it chooses.

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    Re: South Dakota Justifiable Homicide Bill Under Fire as Critics Say It Invites Murde

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    While I'm sure the legislation will be further refined, it's worth pointing out that Roe-v-Wade gives states the right to ban 2nd trimester abortion if it chooses.
    1) I hope the bill be further refined. All I think the language needs is an additional amendment that states that this affirmative defense cannot be used to justify lethal force directed against an abortion provider.

    2) I'm not arguing whether or not states have the rights to ban 2nd trimester abortion if it chooses. That's not even part of this particular issue. What this particular issue is about is to allow pregnant women and any other person to allow them to defend themselves and the child without providing a loophole that allows for legal homicide and terrorism against abortion providers.

    I think that there are two things that both pro-lifers and pro-choicers can agree on.

    1) pregnant women and any defenders should be allowed to use whatever force is necessary to defend a pregnant woman and her unborn child against violent attackers

    2) such a law should not also allow extreme zealots to perform acts of terrorism and go unpunished

    Aren't those two things that both sides of the abortion issue can agree on?
    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

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    Re: South Dakota Justifiable Homicide Bill Under Fire as Critics Say It Invites Murde

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    1) I hope the bill be further refined. All I think the language needs is an additional amendment that states that this affirmative defense cannot be used to justify lethal force directed against an abortion provider.

    2) I'm not arguing whether or not states have the rights to ban 2nd trimester abortion if it chooses. That's not even part of this particular issue. What this particular issue is about is to allow pregnant women and any other person to allow them to defend themselves and the child without providing a loophole that allows for legal homicide and terrorism against abortion providers.

    I think that there are two things that both pro-lifers and pro-choicers can agree on.

    1) pregnant women and any defenders should be allowed to use whatever force is necessary to defend a pregnant woman and her unborn child against violent attackers

    2) such a law should not also allow extreme zealots to perform acts of terrorism and go unpunished

    Aren't those two things that both sides of the abortion issue can agree on?
    If I understand you correctly, you would suppose this law could be used to kill a doctor who removes an adult from life support?

    To offer a direct answer, if SD were to ban 2nd trimester abortion except when the mother's life is in danger (justifiable homicide), then lethal force would be authorized against the physician.

    That doesn't mean anyone is allowed to bomb clinics unless they are a licensed demolitionist hired by the owner to destroy the building. It would, however, mean that a woman's wife could alert the police who could in turn raid the clinic and possibly kill the physician if he were in the act at that moment.\; It means adopting gay men can intervene to protect their child.

    Please offer some examples of ordinary citizens using terrorism as a method of self defense, to rationalize your fears.
    Last edited by Jerry; 02-16-11 at 01:36 AM.

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    Re: South Dakota Justifiable Homicide Bill Under Fire as Critics Say It Invites Murde

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    If I understand you correctly, you would suppose this law could be used to kill a doctor who removes an adult from life support?
    No, because the law specifically refers to protecting an unborn child.

    What I, and other pro-choicers, fear is that this amendment would allow a man who does not want the mother of his unborn child to get an abortion to kill abortion providers and claim that such a homicide is justified because they were killing the abortion providers in an attempt to protect his unborn child.

    It is legal to get abortions in the U.S., albeit with restrictions based on national and state laws. So I view violent attacks on abortion providers simply because they are abortion providers to be acts of terrorism. This law should not allow such a thing.
    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

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    Re: South Dakota Justifiable Homicide Bill Under Fire as Critics Say It Invites Murde

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    No, because the law specifically refers to protecting an unborn child.
    I would like you to reconsider this statement, as the link you yourself gave does not single out the unborn. You cited the definition of Justifiable Homicide, a definition which applies to everyone, not only the unborn.

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    What I, and other pro-choicers, fear is that this amendment would allow a man who does not want the mother of his unborn child to get an abortion to kill abortion providers and claim that such a homicide is justified because they were killing the abortion providers in an attempt to protect his unborn child.
    How is that not a perfectly rational act of any father? If the life of my son was on the line I would protect him.

    Just as the case with the Unborn Victims of Violence act of 2004, I expect both the woman and the license physician will be given a pass. However, if SD were to outlaw non-life-threatening abortion, lethal force would be authorized to protect the child.

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    It is legal to get abortions in the U.S., albeit with restrictions based on national and state laws. So I view violent attacks on abortion providers simply because they are abortion providers to be acts of terrorism. This law should not allow such a thing.
    Please understand that "terrorism" is a very specific thing. An activist group bombing a clinic to gain a political advantage would be terrorism, but your hypothetical of a lone grieved father doing the same is not.

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    Re: South Dakota Justifiable Homicide Bill Under Fire as Critics Say It Invites Murde

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    House Bill 1171

    To continue...


    This strikes home as my sister was stalked and assaulted by the bio-father for refusing to abort. In her 3rd month of pregnancy, the man beat the **** out of her. he would have finished the job if it weren't for a neighbor who heard the fight and intervened. While my sister with her unborn daughter Adrian lived through it, it wasn't from a lack of this man trying. The assault gave Adrian a permanent behavioral disorder, night terrors, and other problems; and compounded my sister's PTSD.

    Pregnant women, having the right to bodily sovereignty, should be free to use lethal to defend themselves and their children no differently than she can use lethal force to stop a rape.
    I think abortionists in general will oppose any law that treats a child in the womb like a person.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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