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Thread: South Dakota Justifiable Homicide Bill Under Fire as Critics Say It Invites Murder of

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    Re: South Dakota Justifiable Homicide Bill Under Fire as Critics Say It Invites Murde

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Ah but we're not talking about "most states". We're talking about South Dakota, or did you not read the OP either?
    OK, in South Dakota it is a class 2 misdemeanor to carry out an unlawful abortion. Murder is a felony.

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    Re: South Dakota Justifiable Homicide Bill Under Fire as Critics Say It Invites Murde

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I'm not sure how you can read...

    ...and get "ZOMG teh worldz gonza ends they bombin R aborshunz oh noes!!1"...but that's exactly what you've don here.
    It doesn't matter what the intent of the law is; it only matters what the letter of the law is, and the law as currently written would define anti-abortion terrorism as justifiable homicide.

    I find this whole thing amusing. The law started out as a wholly superfluous attempt to extend the definition of self-defense as applied to pregnant women, and has been transformed into a legal justification for terrorism. On some level, I have to applaud the South Dakota legislature for its single-mindedness and tenacity.

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    Re: South Dakota Justifiable Homicide Bill Under Fire as Critics Say It Invites Murde

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Ah but we're not talking about "most states". We're talking about South Dakota, or did you not read the OP either?
    doubtless there may be strange laws in south dakota ( are whites and blacks allowed to marry there?)...point is, no matter how many silly rules you folks may invent, they are simply going to be disallowed by adults....states rats died with orville faubus

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    Re: South Dakota Justifiable Homicide Bill Under Fire as Critics Say It Invites Murde

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I think the law says what i thought it said.

    That part applies to everyone...you, me, hell even the mod team.

    I'm tracking this is the proposed change.

    This part refers to everyone, not just the unborn.

    This part regards felony against your home while you're in it; the structure, not a person.
    You may be right in those regards, and any controversial issues are separate from what concerns pro-choicers. For instance, the applicability of this law regarding a case similar to the Terri Schiavo case. But we can discuss that as a separate topic if you so care to. I'd prefer to keep the discussion focused on the amendments that have pro-choicers concerned, at least between the dialogue you and I have, if that's okay with you.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I hear what you're saying, but I had supposed SD made 2nd trimester abortion illegal.
    I'm going to be honest with you, I don't know if it is or if it isn't. Also, to be honest with you, I would never have conceived of a law that would allow someone to murder an abortion provider for doing an abortion outside of the time limit state laws allows. This is because of my personal belief that women have unrestricted reproductive rights.

    So can you and I agree that the law should have an amendment that protects abortion providers pursuing their profession according to state and federal laws? Such a provision would remove such protections from abortion providers who do so against state and federal law. Is that fair?


    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Tell me how this image promote women's health:


    What do you think would happen if pro-life made a similar sign with explosives in the logo? It's exactly like Black history Month is "cultural" but mention any sort of White History Month and you're a racist. Pure double standard.
    I don't care about snarky images and "take thats" from either pro-lifers or pro-choicers, so I'm the wrong person to ask that question to. Instead, I would prefer it if we kept to the civil, polite, and intellectual discussion that you and I have been having so far.

    That may have come out sounding harsher than I want to, but it's actually complimentary. I would rather continue talking about the meat of this particular issue than throwing attacks about the "institutions" of pro-lifers and pro-choicers. It's easy to attack institutions, but I would rather the two of us continue this discussions as individuals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Let's say this law passes as-is: Scott Roeder would still be guilty of murder because 1. Dr.Tiller had special legal authorization to conduct those abortions, and 2. you have to use lethal force in the moment someone is in immediate danger. Shooting someone well before or after the fact is not justifiable homicide no matter how you cut it.
    In the Scott Roeder case and the particulars around it, yes, you are right. But you have to remember that many of the critics of Roeder suggest that he was "pushed" into killing Tiller by other extremists who wouldn't bear any of the responsibility of their role in Tiller's murder.

    So what pro-choicers fear is that a male partner, or even some other family member, of a woman they know is seeking an abortion will use lethal force "to prevent harm to the unborn child." And that person will be pushed into it by pro-life militants.

    Note it doesn't necessarily matter if the law, as it is amended now, allows such an interpretation or not. What matters is that such pro-life militants may convince that person to use violence against abortion providers by lying to them about the effect of the amendment. So making such a clarification in the law could preempt militants from convincing others to commit violent acts with the amendment as a justification for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Well, as a father, if you are jeopardizing my child's life, your life therefor has no value; but we both know the law won't pass as-is. We both know the abortion exception will be installed.
    On a visceral level, I completely sympathize with that rationale. But our society isn't ordered on along lines of the visceral - it's ordered along the lines of popular discourse.

    And I hope you're right and that the exception for legal abortion providers is installed. I just wanted to point out that pro-choicers didn't criticize this amendment to strike back at pro-lifers but rather as an effort to stop violence that may be initiated against militants who makes things worse for both sides.
    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

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    Re: South Dakota Justifiable Homicide Bill Under Fire as Critics Say It Invites Murde

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    Actually, I read the entire thread and most of the links provided in the posts. You asserted that a woman must prove a need to abort. That is ridiculous and factually incorrect.
    Here ya go, another link you won't read because it proves you wrong:
    34-23A-5. Abortion permitted after twenty-four weeks only for medical necessity. An abortion may be performed following the twenty-fourth week of pregnancy by a physician only in a hospital authorized under 34-23A-4 and only if there is appropriate and reasonable medical judgment that performance of an abortion is necessary to preserve the life or health of the mother.

    South Dakota Codified Laws

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    Re: South Dakota Justifiable Homicide Bill Under Fire as Critics Say It Invites Murde

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir View Post
    It doesn't matter what the intent of the law is; it only matters what the letter of the law is, and the law as currently written would define anti-abortion terrorism as justifiable homicide.

    I find this whole thing amusing. The law started out as a wholly superfluous attempt to extend the definition of self-defense as applied to pregnant women, and has been transformed into a legal justification for terrorism. On some level, I have to applaud the South Dakota legislature for its single-mindedness and tenacity.
    yeah, tenacity.....like hitler

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    Re: South Dakota Justifiable Homicide Bill Under Fire as Critics Say It Invites Murde

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir View Post
    It doesn't matter what the intent of the law is; it only matters what the letter of the law is, and the law as currently written would define anti-abortion terrorism as justifiable homicide.

    I find this whole thing amusing. The law started out as a wholly superfluous attempt to extend the definition of self-defense as applied to pregnant women, and has been transformed into a legal justification for terrorism. On some level, I have to applaud the South Dakota legislature for its single-mindedness and tenacity.
    Yes that must be it...SD is a terrorist state...oh noes, you caught us....

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    Re: South Dakota Justifiable Homicide Bill Under Fire as Critics Say It Invites Murde

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Here ya go, another link you won't read because it proves you wrong:
    I like how you didn't include the most important part:

    SL 1973, ch 146, 2(3); SL 2006, ch 119, 9 rejected by referendum Nov. 7, 2006.

    What you are asserting was rejected over five years ago.

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    Re: South Dakota Justifiable Homicide Bill Under Fire as Critics Say It Invites Murde

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    OK, in South Dakota it is a class 2 misdemeanor to carry out an unlawful abortion. Murder is a felony.
    This is getting old..... http://legis.state.sd.us/statutes/Di...5&Type=Statute

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    Re: South Dakota Justifiable Homicide Bill Under Fire as Critics Say It Invites Murde

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    This is getting old..... South Dakota Codified Laws
    There is a huge difference between unauthorized abortions and unlawful abortions. Unauthorized abortions are caused by bodily injury to a pregnant female. Unlawful abortions occur when the doctor does not receive informed consent, which is a misdemeanor.

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