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Thread: House GOP fumbles on Patriot Act renewal

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    Re: House GOP fumbles on Patriot Act renewal

    Further analysis on the vote

    The American Conservative » Wow … Just Wow
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    Re: House GOP fumbles on Patriot Act renewal

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Well...I think its kinda silly to be opposed to it just because Obama is FOR it...maybe I am misreading your comment...

    Ive read a lot on the Patriot Act and Ive heard lots of allegations that it has created abuse...I just have never seen the specific instances where American Citizens have had those rights abused. I dont care what they call it...but there needs to be SOME form of legislation that allows our intel agencies to target NON US citizens suspected of terrorism or supporting terrorism. National Security needs to not be a bull**** partisan argument.
    I've never been for the patriot act, and I think there is a list out there of abuses. In the end, the name alone tells you that this is fishy legislation. And whether it "specifically targets non-us-citizens" or not, it was a power grab for abilities they shouldn't be allowed to have. It doesn't take much to go from non-us-citizen to us-citizen. If the government needs more power it must be handed to them by the People with very specific and strong restraints on how that power can be used. The government cannot be allowed to just take it at their leisure.
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  3. #33
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    Re: House GOP fumbles on Patriot Act renewal

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Yeah, it can be. We just have to stop being stupid, fearful, whinny, douche bags. Toughen up, accept the consequences of freedom, and move on. We can most certainly have that freedom if we restore our resolve to have that freedom..
    I don't consider aggressively seeking out terrorists and making it easier to do so within reason as being a whiny, douche bag. Being a PC type afraid to offend groups in lieu of speaking your mind and defending your policies is being a whiny douche bag.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Yes, and in reality it sucks. It's a terrible piece of Orwellian propaganda and law. I love how "conservatives" support broad and large expansions of government so long as it suits their needs. Way to stay principled. .
    Typical libertarian Owellian paranoia more like it. "Broad" and "large" expansions of government. I don't and I didn't.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    If you trust in the government, your a fool. The founders warned against doing so. Governments are not entities to ever be trusted..
    It should have been evident by my statement that I do not trust the government. But it is obvious that we have no choice but to hand over trust because we don't have the power to cherry pick and manage everything the government does.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Good fear mongering. Except that those things are all low probability events. Eventually someone is going to set off another bomb, another plane may hit another building. 9/11 did not kill as many people as cars do in a year. Let me know when terrorism starts getting to THAT rate, then I'll have something to worry about. Otherwise, it's happened and while there are reasonable things to do to try to lower probabilities, it will never be zero. We will see these events again, and when we do let's not go balls to the wall insane again. .
    We are not going balls to the wall. You are being hysterical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    This is ****ing hilarious. "Don't tell me how we're ****ing over the Constitution, because we are, but you probably will **** over the Constitution too if you had your way."

    Really? That's your excuse, that's your defense. Jesus tap dancing Christ on a pogo stick at least come up with something better than that. It's ok for you to **** all over the Constitution because others would do the same? Is this what has become of "conservatives" in this country? The ones who used to fight for small government, personal responsibility? This is how far the ideology and platform have sunk? It's sad.
    That is not my excuse it is my example of some people being selective about what they bitch about and on which neither I nor you can claim innocence.
    Last edited by jambalaya; 02-10-11 at 02:28 PM.

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    Re: House GOP fumbles on Patriot Act renewal

    Complete elimination of the Patriot Act is in the interest of all Americans. Elimination is a step in the direction of diminishing the federal govt.

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    Re: House GOP fumbles on Patriot Act renewal

    I am glad is was an upset. I hope--and have wrote the Government urging that the renewal does not take place.

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    Re: House GOP fumbles on Patriot Act renewal

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I've never been for the patriot act, and I think there is a list out there of abuses. In the end, the name alone tells you that this is fishy legislation. And whether it "specifically targets non-us-citizens" or not, it was a power grab for abilities they shouldn't be allowed to have. It doesn't take much to go from non-us-citizen to us-citizen. If the government needs more power it must be handed to them by the People with very specific and strong restraints on how that power can be used. The government cannot be allowed to just take it at their leisure.
    I hope you understand that I get the concern. One of the values I think of something LIKE the Patriot Act (names dont skeer me) is that it specifically defines the ability of LE instead of just allowing a free for all in the name of fighting terrorism. And while Ive HEAR there were abuses...ive just frankly never had anyone respond with legitimate actual cases of abuse. not saying they dont exist...just sayin...thats the response i usually get...well...I cant name any...but...theres a LOT...

    Look we have people here int his country that are illegal, that have used their entrance visas and vanished, use internet and untracked cell phones to communicate with people in known terrorist havens. I DO NOT pretend to know what the absolute answer is, but i will tell you that democrat or republican...I dont care who is in charge...if they fall asleep at the wheel like they have in the past and allow another 9-11, I for one am going to be PISSED OFF. I think you can effectively fight terrorism without infringing on the constitutional rights of American citizens.

  7. #37
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    Re: House GOP fumbles on Patriot Act renewal

    Quote Originally Posted by jambalaya View Post
    I don't consider aggressively seeking out terrorists and making it easier to do so within reason as being a whiny, douche bag. Being a PC type afraid to offend groups in lieu of speaking your mind and defending your policies is being a whiny douche bag.
    Being against the Patriot Act isnt PC, where did you pull this from.



    Typical libertarian Owellian paranoia more like it. "Broad" and "large" expansions of government. I don't and I didn't.
    I think its more along the lines of typical statist conservative support for government thuggery as long as the thugs dont go after conservative voting bloc.



    It should have been evident by my statement that I do not trust the government.
    Actually apparent you do trust the thugs with power with your support for the act. I though you so called tough guys in the south were always suspicious when the thugs in DC want more power. Guess not
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  8. #38
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    Re: House GOP fumbles on Patriot Act renewal

    Quote Originally Posted by jambalaya View Post
    I know I am in a minority here but I don't have the knee jerk reaction to everything associated with the Patriot Act that most seem to have. It is folly and also a little arrogant to think we can go on living like 9/11 never happen and that freedom of movement and privacy can be defined the same way. We stand at the peak of a hill where the slope is slippery down both sides. It is sad that freedom doesn't mean and cannot mean what it did 10, 20 or 30 years ago but we have to get over it. U.S. citizens have been well protected since 9/11 and it isn't because we buried our heads in the sand. The Patriot Act represents reality. Sorry that the government has let us down on so many issues and that we don't trust them. It is the only government we have and they are charged with keeping more planes from crashing into buildings or bombs going off where we work and live. Don't take this time of relative quiet to get all haughty about the constitution on this issue. A lot of you probably **** on the Constitution and call it outdated on other issues.
    Sorry, but this act was an abomination against the US Constitution when it was passed and increases so for every day it remains on the books. We Americans are suppose to value freedom and bravery.... well, 9/11 happens and we salute our military for dying for our freedoms while we pass the Patriot Act, in essence, giving up our freedoms so we won't die. I said it then (when there was alt.politics, the newsgroup) and will say it now: the Patriot Act was a complete act of cowardice on the part of congress and Americans in general. We overreacted to 9/11. As a result, we actually weakened ourselves and set up more attacks.

    I believe in our Constitution. I can accept the limitations inherent in the Constitution in investigating and prosecuting terrorists. I can also accept an occasional 9/11 in lieu of giving up freedom for a false sense of security.... and I will accept that 9/11 even if I end up as a victim. That, to me, is the price of liberty and I am willing to pay it.

    I don't care what party leads the charge to send this down in flames, I am all for it.
    Last edited by upsideguy; 02-13-11 at 09:21 PM.

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    Re: House GOP fumbles on Patriot Act renewal

    House Votes to Extend Patriot Act Provisions

    The House on Monday voted to reauthorize and extend through Dec. 8 three ways in which Congress expanded the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s counterterrorism powers after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

    Last week, an effort to extend these provisions of the so-called Patriot Act and a related intelligence law failed to pass after falling just short of the two-thirds’ majority needed under a special rule. On Monday, however, the bill was able to pass with only a simple majority — and it did so, 275 to 144.

    The provisions allow investigators to get “roving wiretap” court orders allowing them to follow terrorism suspects who switch phone numbers or providers; to get orders allowing them to seize “any tangible things” relevant to a security investigation, like a business’s customer records; and to get national-security wiretap orders against non-citizen suspects who are not connected to any foreign power.

    Without new legislation, the provisions would expire on Feb. 28. House Republicans pressed the short-term extension so the Judiciary Committee, which is now under Republican control, could hold hearings on them.

    During the debate on Monday, most Republicans argued in favor of the bill, while many Democrats criticized it. Still, the debate did not break down entirely along partisan lines.

    Sixty-five Democrats voted for it, including Representative C. A. Dutch Ruppersberger of Maryland, the ranking Democrat on the Intelligence Committee, who argued that he thought it would be better to go even further and extend the provisions through 2013 — as the Obama administration wants to do.

    And 27 Republicans voted against it, including Representative Dana Rohrabacher, Republican of California, who said the American people had “a legitimate fear of out-of-control prosecutors and out-of-control spy networks.”

    Because there is little time left before the provisions expire, it is likely that the Senate will approve the House’s bill — putting off a larger debate over the provisions until later in the year.

    Senators have been debating their own proposals, which include reauthorizing the provisions through 2013 but imposing greater safeguards on them, or making the provisions permanent without modifications.

    Congress overwhelmingly passed the original Patriot Act in October 2001. Over time, it became a symbol of eroding civil liberties and privacy rights for those who believed that government power had expanded too far. Supporters of the law have often accused its critics of exaggerating its risks and of being willing to endanger the country.
    __________________________________________________ __________________

    Obama was against it... before he was for it.
    Last edited by Whovian; 02-14-11 at 11:14 PM.

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    Re: House GOP fumbles on Patriot Act renewal

    The Patriot Act is just an excuse to use unconstitutional methods to catch all types of criminals; not just terrorists.

    Why are the borders not secured? It's elementary. You close off the borders if you think you are being invaded, yet that STILL has not happened.

    Instead they are more interested in using unconstitutional procedures against citizens rather than taking the necessary steps to protect the country. We are at war overseas, spending trillions in foreign aid, and sacrificing many of our lives only to prop up foreign trade and global businesses; and we were doing all that before 9/11 as well. Terrorism is a side effect of these acts in addition to other factors. The patriot act will not keep us safe from terrorism. Another one will happen again. It's inevitable. And then what more rights shall we give up for "safety"? It's a never ending saga of using the words "national security" to control the people. If they really cared about security from foreign terrorists they would have secured the border and that would have costs even less; and it would not have required defecating all over our constitution.

    Those that voted "aye" to renew these provisions should be charged with crimes or at least voted out of office.

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