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Thread: Egypt protests: Muslim Brotherhood 'to join talks

  1. #31
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    Re: Egypt protests: Muslim Brotherhood 'to join talks

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Is Holocaust denial illegal?

    Is this illegal?



    Is this illegal?

    Yes. So what? There are Nazis who do none of these things, and still they are Nazis.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  2. #32
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    Re: Egypt protests: Muslim Brotherhood 'to join talks

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Good
    Muslim Brotherhood should be included in any talks. I hope they do not take any seat of power until the Government provide on everything the protesters want beginning with the President leaving and stripping his bank account's no doubt hidden abroad
    How about some due process? Prolly not, huh?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  3. #33
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    Re: Egypt protests: Muslim Brotherhood 'to join talks

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The question was asked how a banned party can have members elected to the government. I simply answerd the question. It's almost sounds as if you're trying to tell me that I'm wrong.
    I don't know if you're wrong, I still fail to see the connection.

    The original Nazi party NSDAP was banned by the Americans and other Allies in 1945. That doesn't mean old Nazis and neo-Nazis were not allowed to form a new party, as long as they did nothing illegal. That's what they did: They founded the NPD in 1964. The NPD is not illegal.

    Those few Nazis who are sitting in German parliaments have been elected on the NPD list, not as "independents" (in these regards, you are wrong). And there are no Nazis, NPD members or otherwise, in any German "government". The NPD is by far not successful enough to ever have formed a government, not even joined another party as junior partner.

    But, they're running in desguise, because it's illegal to be a Nazi in Germany.
    No, they are not. The NPD members are not hiding their ideology in any way. Everybody knows they are Nazis. And they say so much themselves, just avoiding illegal symbols, that's all. But everybody knows very well what kind of people they are.

    And as I said, it's not illegal to run as Nazi in Germany. Just certain symbols and Holocaust denial is illegal -- but as long as you stay away from that, and play by the rules, you can be thoroughly Nazi and nobody can keep you from running in elections. That's what the NPD is doing.
    Last edited by German guy; 02-06-11 at 01:27 AM.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  4. #34
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    Re: Egypt protests: Muslim Brotherhood 'to join talks

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    I don't know if you're wrong, I still fail to see the connection.

    The original Nazi party NSDAP was banned by the Americans and other Allies in 1945. That doesn't mean old Nazis and neo-Nazis were not allowed to form a new party, as long as they did nothing illegal. That's what they did: They founded the NPD in 1964. The NPD is not illegal.

    Those few Nazis who are sitting in German parliaments have been elected on the NPD list, not as "independents" (in these regards, you are wrong). And there are no Nazis, NPD members or otherwise, in any German "government". The NPD is by far not successful enough to ever have formed a government, not even joined another party as junior partner.



    No, they are not. The NPD members are not hiding their ideology in any way. Everybody knows they are Nazis. And they say so much themselves, just avoiding illegal symbols, that's all. But everybody knows very well what kind of people they are.

    And as I said, it's not illegal to run as Nazi in Germany. Just certain symbols and Holocaust denial is illegal -- but as long as you stay away from that, and play by the rules, you can be thoroughly Nazi and nobody can keep you from running in elections. That's what the NPD is doing.
    Just like people in Egypt know that MB members, running as independents, or with some other party, are Islamofacists.

    Don't get defensive. I'm not saying that it's the German people's fault that one of the most murderous regimes in history was allowed to exist and eventually cause the deaths of 40 million civilians in Europe. I'll save that for another thread, when the topic is more appropriate.

    I was only answering the question of, how do members of an illegal party get elected to office?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  5. #35
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    Re: Egypt protests: Muslim Brotherhood 'to join talks

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Just like people in Egypt know that MB members, running as independents, or with some other party, are Islamofacists.

    Don't get defensive. I'm not saying that it's the German people's fault that one of the most murderous regimes in history was allowed to exist and eventually cause the deaths of 40 million civilians in Europe. I'll save that for another thread, when the topic is more appropriate.

    I was only answering the question of, how do members of an illegal party get elected to office?
    Ok, I see your point now. You're probably right about the islamists in Egypt. It makes sense that they used to run as independents.

    And I don't think I'm getting defensive. You may very well be right that the German people can be blamed for the Nazi murders, I'd probably sign that. I'd just take offense if you suggested Germans today are still the same, and that Germans don't know what freedom is (I was in Berlin in 1989, when people on the street pushed away the oppressive regime in the East and reached freedom).

    I'm, just saying the situation in Germany is not comparable with Egypt at all. We don't have Nazis "in disguise" running as independents (our proportional representation system makes it almost impossible for independents to run apart a party list anyways). We have neo-Nazis running on their party list freely and in the open for everybody to see. And the "oppression" of Nazis in Germany is absolutely not comparable to the oppression of opposition groups in Egypt. The hurdles for banning a party are very high, can only be ordered on order by the highest court and apart from that, there are just a few laws banning old Nazi symbols and certain types of hate speech.

    Sorry again for this off-topic debate.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  6. #36
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    Re: Egypt protests: Muslim Brotherhood 'to join talks

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    Ok, I see your point now. You're probably right about the islamists in Egypt. It makes sense that they used to run as independents.

    And I don't think I'm getting defensive. You may very well be right that the German people can be blamed for the Nazi murders, I'd probably sign that. I'd just take offense if you suggested Germans today are still the same, and that Germans don't know what freedom is (I was in Berlin in 1989, when people on the street pushed away the oppressive regime in the East and reached freedom).

    I'm, just saying the situation in Germany is not comparable with Egypt at all. We don't have Nazis "in disguise" running as independents (our proportional representation system makes it almost impossible for independents to run apart a party list anyways). We have neo-Nazis running on their party list freely and in the open for everybody to see. And the "oppression" of Nazis in Germany is absolutely not comparable to the oppression of opposition groups in Egypt. The hurdles for banning a party are very high, can only be ordered on order by the highest court and apart from that, there are just a few laws banning old Nazi symbols and certain types of hate speech.

    Sorry again for this off-topic debate.
    It's all good, my man.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  7. #37
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    Re: Egypt protests: Muslim Brotherhood 'to join talks

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    Isn't freedom in the interest of America?
    If its freedom to practice & express western Values then yes, but if its freedom to practice Sharia law & allow them to spead it across the globe then I would say no. There freedom to do that should be supressed.

    You could argue that free elections and an end to Mubarak's tyranny is a cause Americans should appreciate, because that's the essense of Western values. America even invaded Iraq to advance these very values of freedom. That the Muslim Brotherhood gets influence once authoritarian rule ends, is an unfortunate side effect.
    If they are allowed to gain too much influence the authoritarian rule will not end it will probably get worse, especially for the Coptic christians & the more secular elements of this society.

    If America kept supporting a tyrant, just because this tyrant is friendly towards the US and its interests, could damage America's interests by damaging America's credibility -- especially when this tyrant uses violence to oppress or even strike down a mass protest supported by a majority of the population.

    The problem is just that freedom is risky in this case.
    You have no clue what you are talking about here or where this is headed. Looking at the history of the ME there is a better chance this so called revolution will end up with an even more tyranical regime than the one that is leaving.

    One that has pledged to scrap the peace treaty with Israel & resume the war.

    One that will treat its minorities much like its Islamist neibor in Sudan where the Copts
    may very well be persecuted much like the people of Darfur & Southern Sudan.

    One that imposes Sharia law on the populace much the way the Islamist regime in Iran does.

    The Muslim Brotherhood is at war with the west its just that people like you who dont understand what is going on that dont know this. Publicy the Brotherhood promotes peaceful means, while there military wings which include Hamas & Al Qaeda carry out there true agenda. If the Brotherhood ever gains control of Egypts powerful military which includes over 1000 M1 battle tanks along with hundreds of F16 fighter jets the whole region is in for big trouble.

    So even if the majority in Egypt want the Brotherhood I would never let that happen if I am an American president & can do anything at all about it, which means supporting a dictator or not. Another war with Israel would no doubt lead to thousands of dead Egyptians and Israelis and I'm not sure how that is in anyones interests especially Egypts whose been on the receiving end of the beating in the previous encounters.

    If they can pull off an election with a Brotherhood free government then I'm all for it but looking at similiar attempts around the ME, I'd say thats wishful thinking. One example being Lebanon where a free election was held democratically then its leader was assasinated. Then his son was elected only to be bullied out by the terroist group Hezbollah.

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    Re: Egypt protests: Muslim Brotherhood 'to join talks

    I am well aware that the events you describe may result from the protests in Egypt.

    I just wonder whether we have the right to support oppression against the local population, many of which are probably not fond of the Muslim Brotherhood either. Do we (in the West) have a right to support dictatorship, oppression and tyranny, just because it's "our" brand of tyranny? The actually peace loving Egyptians becoming "collateral damage" of such a policy? In some cases, there may probably be no choice. But at any rate, it flies right in the face of Western rhetorics and ethical justifications, which claim a moral high ground based on the idea we stand for freedom.

    Also, considering this is a massive public uprising, such an attempt might even backfire. Assuming we (the West) further supported Mubarak and/or his regime, and it got toppled anyway by the people, that would likely make the relations between a new government of any kind and the West even more difficult, wouldn't it? They wouldn't forget we didn't support them. So we better place some money on the probable winners.

    So what's the best course of action? Probably the best we (the West) can hope for is having some say in a transition plan, which apparently is what the US government is already attempting to do. They're doing the best to let this development take an ordered way -- stopping it is out of their reach. So trying to maintain some basic order during the process is probably the best we can hope for. Success is not guaranteed, but it looks like we don't have much more than a choice between lesser evils.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  9. #39
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    Re: Egypt protests: Muslim Brotherhood 'to join talks

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    I am well aware that the events you describe may result from the protests in Egypt.

    I just wonder whether we have the right to support oppression against the local population, many of which are probably not fond of the Muslim Brotherhood either. Do we (in the West) have a right to support dictatorship, oppression and tyranny, just because it's "our" brand of tyranny? The actually peace loving Egyptians becoming "collateral damage" of such a policy? In some cases, there may probably be no choice. But at any rate, it flies right in the face of Western rhetorics and ethical justifications, which claim a moral high ground based on the idea we stand for freedom.

    Also, considering this is a massive public uprising, such an attempt might even backfire. Assuming we (the West) further supported Mubarak and/or his regime, and it got toppled anyway by the people, that would likely make the relations between a new government of any kind and the West even more difficult, wouldn't it? They wouldn't forget we didn't support them. So we better place some money on the probable winners.

    So what's the best course of action? Probably the best we (the West) can hope for is having some say in a transition plan, which apparently is what the US government is already attempting to do. They're doing the best to let this development take an ordered way -- stopping it is out of their reach. So trying to maintain some basic order during the process is probably the best we can hope for. Success is not guaranteed, but it looks like we don't have much more than a choice between lesser evils.
    It's a double edged sword, there's no doubt. However, if a totally anti-Western regime takes the reins in Egypt, I believe it's perfectly reasonable for the United States--and other Western allies of the United States--to have a say in what goes on. Allied say-so in the formation of a new Egyptian government is very much in the best interest of the Egyptian people. If an anti-Western government takes over and does something stupid, then thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of Egyptian lives will be lost as a result.

    History has proven that the ME needs adult supervision.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  10. #40
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    Re: Egypt protests: Muslim Brotherhood 'to join talks

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    I don't agree. I think the Muslim Brotherhood is like Hezbollah. Hezbollah has a charitable wing and an armed wing. One organization with two divisions.

    Edit: Strike the word "armed" and replace it with the word "Islamist."

    The key word in your post is "I think".Take it a step further and do a little research and you might come up with something a bit more solid than "I think ".

    Al-qaeda,s jihadi holy wars doctrine, was being pushed by former brotherhood members(Abdullah Azzam) but the leaders at that time renounced revolutionary violence and the jihadist interpretation of the Koran.

    The key is in the above paragraph if you care to pursue it.Goodnight this ole trucker has to hit the bunk now.
    The haggardness of poverty is everywhere seen contrasted with the sleekness of wealth, the exhorted labor of some compensating for the idleness of others, wretched hovels by the side of stately colonnades, the rags of indigence blended with the ensigns of opulence; in a word, the most useless profusion in the midst of the most urgent wants.Jean-Baptiste Say

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