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Thread: Egypt protests: Muslim Brotherhood 'to join talks

  1. #21
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    Re: Egypt protests: Muslim Brotherhood 'to join talks

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    Isn't freedom in the interest of America?

    You could argue that free elections and an end to Mubarak's tyranny is a cause Americans should appreciate, because that's the essense of Western values. America even invaded Iraq to advance these very values of freedom. That the Muslim Brotherhood gets influence once authoritarian rule ends, is an unfortunate side effect.

    If America kept supporting a tyrant, just because this tyrant is friendly towards the US and its interests, could damage America's interests by damaging America's credibility -- especially when this tyrant uses violence to oppress or even strike down a mass protest supported by a majority of the population.

    The problem is just that freedom is risky in this case.
    The one thing that is certain is that freedom for the American people is the only thing which is in the interest of the American people. Everything else depends on all of the facts and circumstances.

    There is a dichotomy between American ideals and American national interests. The Bush Democracy Agenda was formally abandoned by Obama. Iraq has discredited the idea of American involvement in the aspirations of other peoples. America must never get involved again in the spread of democratic ideology. The cost is too high.

    The question I posed did not inquire about the ideals of the American people. Rather it asked about the interests of the American people.

    America should have no further involvement with Egyptian politics. That having been said, there are only two realistic outcomes stemming from rapid democratization of Egypt. The first is an Egypt which resembles Iran in its hostility to America. The other possible outcome is an Egypt which is duplicitious and unreliable like Turkey under Erdogan. Both outcomes represent a setback for the national interests of the American people.

    In retrospect it would have been advisable to have pursued a Democracy Agenda peacefully starting in the 1990s under Clinton so that democracy could have incubated. Now whatever springs forth will be full grown and will represent a setback for Americans.

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    Re: Egypt protests: Muslim Brotherhood 'to join talks

    Quote Originally Posted by donc View Post
    I have read that they are officially banned on holding any political office, yet they have somehow managed to get themselves elected to around 20% their parliament offices or whatever they call it their.
    It's because they run as, "independents". The same thing is going on in Germany with the Neo-Nazis.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Egypt protests: Muslim Brotherhood 'to join talks

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    Isn't freedom in the interest of America?

    You could argue that free elections and an end to Mubarak's tyranny is a cause Americans should appreciate, because that's the essense of Western values. America even invaded Iraq to advance these very values of freedom. That the Muslim Brotherhood gets influence once authoritarian rule ends, is an unfortunate side effect.

    If America kept supporting a tyrant, just because this tyrant is friendly towards the US and its interests, could damage America's interests by damaging America's credibility -- especially when this tyrant uses violence to oppress or even strike down a mass protest supported by a majority of the population.

    The problem is just that freedom is risky in this case.
    Is it legal in Germany for members of the Nazi Party to run for office? Hell, is it even legal to be a member of the Nazi Party?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Egypt protests: Muslim Brotherhood 'to join talks

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    It's because they run as, "independents". The same thing is going on in Germany with the Neo-Nazis.
    Sorry for going off-topic, but: It's interesting to say that, because I've never seen any neo-Nazi running as "independent" winning an election in Germany. Or any independent for that matter, except a few on local level. Usually, neo-Nazis are running on the platform of the party NPD. There were just cases when members of an established party, after having been elected into the state parliament, were expelled from their party after Nazi remarks and thus remain in the respective parliament as "independents" until the next election.

    But if you know more than me, enlighten me, please.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

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    Re: Egypt protests: Muslim Brotherhood 'to join talks

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Is it legal in Germany for members of the Nazi Party to run for office? Hell, is it even legal to be a member of the Nazi Party?
    Yes. Do a search on the "National Democratic Party of Germany" NPD.

    It's true that such parties can be banned, but the hurdles are very high. Nazi ideology alone is not sufficient. The court must prove they have an "active-fighting attitude towards the free democratic basic order", which means they must support violence, revolutionary thoughts or something of that kind. The highest court rejected a ban on the NPD in 2001 (IIRC), because this attitude could not be proven.

    The NPD has won 1.5% of the votes in the 2009 election (1.6% in 2005) and thus failed to reach the 5.0% necessary to get representation in the national parliament. But the NPD scored two success d'estime in two East German states (Mecklenburg, where they entered the parliament in 2006 with 7.3% of the votes, and in Saxony, where they won 5.6% in 2009).
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

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    Re: Egypt protests: Muslim Brotherhood 'to join talks

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    Sorry for going off-topic, but: It's interesting to say that, because I've never seen any neo-Nazi running as "independent" winning an election in Germany. Or any independent for that matter, except a few on local level. Usually, neo-Nazis are running on the platform of the party NPD. There were just cases when members of an established party, after having been elected into the state parliament, were expelled from their party after Nazi remarks and thus remain in the respective parliament as "independents" until the next election.

    But if you know more than me, enlighten me, please.
    Great job illustrating my point. Nazis in Germany aren't running as, "Nazis", they are running as NPD members.

    Let's not pretend that they're not a pack-a-Nazis, or at the very least, Nazi sympathisers.

    The guy in this photo is the head honcho of the NPD. The image of the guy on the banner in the background? Yeah, that's Rudolph Hess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Egypt protests: Muslim Brotherhood 'to join talks

    Good
    Muslim Brotherhood should be included in any talks. I hope they do not take any seat of power until the Government provide on everything the protesters want beginning with the President leaving and stripping his bank account's no doubt hidden abroad


  8. #28
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    Re: Egypt protests: Muslim Brotherhood 'to join talks

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Great job illustrating my point.
    Sorry, but what *was* your point? I still fail to see what neo-Nazis in Germany have to do with protests in Egypt.

    Nazis in Germany aren't running as, "Nazis", they are running as NPD members.

    Let's not pretend that they're not a pack-a-Nazis, or at the very least, Nazi sympathisers.

    The guy in this photo is the head honcho of the NPD. The image of the guy on the banner in the background? Yeah, that's Rudolph Hess.

    The NPD is a hardcore neo-Nazi party, and everybody knows that.

    Just like everybody in America knows that the "White Pride"-folks are hardcore neo-Nazis. What point are you trying to make?
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

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    Re: Egypt protests: Muslim Brotherhood 'to join talks

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    Yes. Do a search on the "National Democratic Party of Germany" NPD.

    It's true that such parties can be banned, but the hurdles are very high. Nazi ideology alone is not sufficient. The court must prove they have an "active-fighting attitude towards the free democratic basic order", which means they must support violence, revolutionary thoughts or something of that kind. The highest court rejected a ban on the NPD in 2001 (IIRC), because this attitude could not be proven.

    The NPD has won 1.5% of the votes in the 2009 election (1.6% in 2005) and thus failed to reach the 5.0% necessary to get representation in the national parliament. But the NPD scored two success d'estime in two East German states (Mecklenburg, where they entered the parliament in 2006 with 7.3% of the votes, and in Saxony, where they won 5.6% in 2009).
    Is Holocaust denial illegal?

    Is this illegal?



    Is this illegal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  10. #30
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    Re: Egypt protests: Muslim Brotherhood 'to join talks

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    Sorry, but what *was* your point? I still fail to see what neo-Nazis in Germany have to do with protests in Egypt.
    The question was asked how a banned party can have members elected to the government. I simply answerd the question. It's almost sounds as if you're trying to tell me that I'm wrong.



    The NPD is a hardcore neo-Nazi party, and everybody knows that.

    Just like everybody in America knows that the "White Pride"-folks are hardcore neo-Nazis. What point are you trying to make?
    But, they're running in desguise, because it's illegal to be a Nazi in Germany.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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