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Cameron tells Muslim Britain: stop tolerating extremists

Changing the subject to the behavior of Christians 200 or 1200 years ago is not understanding. It is merely an excuse. Diminishing the extent to which certain beliefs are held is not understanding. It is merely dishonest. Advancing the same rationales as Islamists to justify their actions is not understanding. It is merely useful idiocy.

THose who claim to "understand" might be better served by attempting to actually understand instead of simply deciding ahead of time that they must defend and then spending the entirety of their postings doing so no matter what.

As regards the first point, often this is not a case of changing the subject. Given that the disscussion normally focuses around whether these actions are an inherent part of Islam it is neccesary to look at other examples. Thus violence and authoritarianism are no more an inherent part of Islam then they are of Christiality, both have been varied in different situations. And we dont need to go back 200 years, we need only go back to the break-up of Yugoslavia, The Spanish Civil War and facist Croatia. And this is an important point as the myth that this extremism is inherent to the entire muslim world is part of a wider agenda of dehumanising those on the recieving end of Western foreign policy. It can be used to justify some our long standing policy of support for authoritarianism in the region, are wreakless disregard for civillan causualties in Iraq and Afganistan and our torture of innocent people in Guantanomo. The fact that someone is willing to blow themselves up about these grevences does not mean that these grevences are illegitimate, only that the action is illegitimate.

Ultimatly I dont except that these traits are inherent to Islam as I dont see the evidence. The lack of support for Islam electorally and the comparatively benine history that Islam has in tolerating other religeons (again it is necessary to make the comparison to Christiality here) convince me other wise, but im open to changing my mind on this. Thats why im here, however what normally happens is that you debate me rather then the topic.

We have a differing interpretation of why these actions occur, so the rational responce to this would be to actually come to the truth about which is correct via a rational and honest discussion. That is to say one in which both sides looks at the reasons why the other has come to this conclusion and asks themselves whether the reasons and the conclusions for them are valid. This is never the case because not only do you insist on making up my opinions for me but coming up with completely false reasons for holding opinions that I dont, in reality, hold in the first place.
 
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many in particular reply to are those who judge all Muslims or Islam by those actions and are usually the first ones drooling at the idea of more material to attack Islam with

wherever you'd see that going on, i'd (for whatever nothingness my opinion could possibly be worth) condemn it

as much for it's fundamental unfairness and wrongness as for it's political stupidity

it's just not winning politics in america

probably because it IS untrue

stay up
 

I'm more interested to find out why exactly so many people are attracted to such a twisted ideology in the first place. Crazy ideas and ideologies abound everywhere in the world, but extremist/fundamentalist/radical Islam derives its power from a certain degree of popular support. Nobody seems to know why people are attracted to it in the first place.
 
I'm more interested to find out why exactly so many people are attracted to such a twisted ideology in the first place. Crazy ideas and ideologies abound everywhere in the world, but extremist/fundamentalist/radical Islam derives its power from a certain degree of popular support. Nobody seems to know why people are attracted to it in the first place.

Read what Carl Jung has to say about Nazism and there are some pretty strong parralells
 
Which would be pretty pointless, this is "Debate Politics" not 'state the obvious and go away' what is up for disscussion is not whether these actions are moral but why they occur. To explain or understand these actions is not to excuse them.

You could start with acknowledging the existence of the prob;em. Common ground...what a concept. The OP cited a POV that has been roundly criticized on this site byt people who's kneejerk reaction is to deny extremism is a problem and defend all muslims. Its when the denial goes out that the tendency is stronger to lump them together.

So...for the record...we are all in Koombaya agreement that 1 extremism is a problem, 2-PC Multi-culturalism has failed, and 3- Muslims need to do a better job of taking an oppositional stand to extremism.
 
*sigh*. Yes, I support terrorists deep down, I worship Osama Bin Laden and I'm planning a terrorist attack right now and I dance naked to the tune of Hitler

-Grins while cupping my hand to my ear-.......... you know if you listen really close … I think I can hear that Hitler tune playing right now
 
Caught me out have you? :lamo

No one ever says they are not scumbags.
But there is always those few posters who post some of those gems I have highlighted or claim it is somehow something all Muslims support which starts the arguments in many of the Islam-related threads.
Not whether Islamists are good or bad

For me...and only for me...I know its not all Muslims. I probably have at least as much if not more experience in relationships with Muslims than anyone here except..well..Muslims. What gets me is the immediately kneejerk denial demonstarted by many that since it isnt ALL Muslims then it is isnt a concern. Frankly, I think what Mr Cmeron said is pretty much what I have said here consistently.
 
I've got no problem with a lot of what Cameron had to say. I'll go further, here's what he says needs to be done to challenge extremism:
We must ban preachers of hate from coming to our countries.
Of course we should, whether that person is a Moslem cleric, an extremist Christian preacher, or a Dutch neo-fascist. If you're coming to preach hatred, you're not welcome.
We must also proscribe organisations that incite terrorism - against people at home and abroad.
Who could object to this?
Governments must also be shrewder in dealing with those that, while not violent, are certainly, in some cases, part of the problem. We need to think much harder about who it's in the public interest to work with.
I do have a problem with this. What does it mean? Does it mean groups that simply do not share our views. Or ones whose activity, while in itself not violent, could lead to violence. Like the NRA perhaps? No, that's silly, but do YOU know what he means?
Some organisations that seek to present themselves as a gateway to the Muslim community are showered with public money despite doing little to combat extremism. As others have observed, this is like turning to a right-wing fascist party to fight a violent white supremacist movement.
I can't disagree with this. There's a lot of laziness taking place, and timidity. People self-censor to the point where they are unwilling to call someone out on some unacceptable positions for fear of being called a racist. If people are going to receive public funds then their organisation should be scrutinised properly. That goes for Christian, Muslim, Jewish groups - everyone.

So let's properly judge these organisations: Do they believe in universal human rights - including for women and people of other faiths? Do they believe in equality of all before the law? Do they believe in democracy and the right of people to elect their own government? Do they encourage integration or separatism?

These are the sorts of questions we need to ask. Fail these tests and the presumption should be not to engage with organisations. No public money. No sharing of platforms with Ministers at home.

But does all this go far enough? And can we have confidence that this initiative is not going to be used solely to attack Moslem communities? I don't think for a second that Cameron would have said what he did had he believed this would happen, but this forum bears witness that not everyone who wants to uphold liberal behaviour in the face of Islamism can distinguish between extremism and difference.

Cameron said:
We need to be absolutely clear on where the origins of these terrorist attacks lie - and that is the existence of an ideology, 'Islamist extremism'. And we should be equally clear what we mean by this term, distinguishing it from Islam.

Islam is a religion, observed peacefully and devoutly by over a billion people. Islamist extremism is a political ideology, supported by a minority.
I've read posts just today that clearly define the enemy as being Islam. They're not the only ones.

So, if we are to adopt an attitude of 'Muscular Liberalism' we need to demonstrate we know the difference between Islam and Islamism, and that we are prepared to apply the same standards to all religious and minority groups.

Here's where Cameron really falls down however. He say that the way forward involves two key changes:
  1. Tackling extremism
  2. Promoting citizenship
It's in the second of these that his strategy seems doomed to failure. He says:
A genuinely liberal country does much more.

It believes in certain values and actively promotes them.

Freedom of speech. Freedom of worship. Democracy. The rule of law. Equal rights regardless of race, sex or sexuality.

It says to its citizens: this is what defines us as a society.
What happens when these facets of a liberal society conflict with one another? We have been told that in the future we need to be denying a platform to those who preach intolerance. We must be banning preachers and proscribing organisations. If we ban the Muslim Brotherhood for their intolerance towards homosexuals (good, btw) what about the Catholic Church. Were the MB to tone down the violent rhetoric, would we accept their dismissal of homosexuality in the way we give the Pope a free pass to dismiss it?

If Cameron is arguing that those Moslem speakers and organisations that, while not advocating violence, promote an alien illiberal agenda, need to be addressed and challenged and have funding reviewed and removed, why not for other religious groups whose rhetoric, while not violent, is deeply illiberal?

And finally (for now), he says:
It says to its citizens: this is what defines us as a society.
Is that it? Is that all we are meant to have in common? A shared, woolly commitment (not shared by the majority of his own party, I might add) to liberal values. That's all it means to be British? Bugger me! I could've sworn there was more to it than that!
 
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I'm more interested to find out why exactly so many people are attracted to such a twisted ideology in the first place. Crazy ideas and ideologies abound everywhere in the world, but extremist/fundamentalist/radical Islam derives its power from a certain degree of popular support. Nobody seems to know why people are attracted to it in the first place.

Careful there, pal. Your need to understand what makes them tick will be misinterpreted as you trying to find excuses for their behavior. Just thought I'd warn you. :2wave:
 
It's in the second of these that his strategy seems doomed to failure. He says:

What happens when these facets of a liberal society conflict with one another? We have been told that in the future we need to be denying a platform to those who preach intolerance. We must be banning preachers and proscribing organisations. If we ban the Muslim Brotherhood for their intolerance towards homosexuals (good, btw) what about the Catholic Church. Were the MB to tone down the violent rhetoric, would we accept their dismissal of homosexuality in the way we give the Pope a free pass to dismiss it?

Yes, actually, I think that's exactly what would happen. Were Islamic extremists to become as harmless and irrelevant as the Catholics in their dogma and rhetoric, we would absolutely dismiss them. But seeing as the feeling that Islamists pose a clear and present danger is no longer just the fodder of ultra-right wing fear-mongering, but seems to have spread across the political spectrum all over Europe, they won't get a pass, no matter how much of a minority they are. Like it or not, they're in the spotlight right now and it's becoming increasingly apparent that the West is no longer willing to compromise its values.

If Cameron is arguing that those Moslem speakers and organisations that, while not advocating violence, promote an alien illiberal agenda, need to be addressed and challenged and have funding reviewed and removed, why not for other religious groups whose rhetoric, while not violent, is deeply illiberal?

For consistency's sake, other religious groups that routinely promote an illiberal agenda should be denied funding as well. I'm not gonna hold my breath on that, though.

And finally (for now), he says:
Is that it? Is that all we are meant to have in common? A shared, woolly commitment (not shared by the majority of his own party, I might add) to liberal values. That's all it means to be British? Bugger me! I could've sworn there was more to it than that!

I don't think he meant that is all it means to be British. He meant that all British citizens should share those fundamental core values. The core values shared by the majority is what defines any given culture, regardless of the many regional differences that make a country what it is.
 
Originally Posted by Laila

"...I dance naked to the tune of Hitler"


Would you be interested in working in Las Vegas?
 
One mistake Muslims seem to have made as a general matter is to associate themselves in a political alliance with leftists. That is a very grave error.
 
it's becoming increasingly apparent that the West is no longer willing to compromise its values.
Except when it comes to Saudi Arabia, the UAE and other 'good' dictatorships.
For consistency's sake, other religious groups that routinely promote an illiberal agenda should be denied funding as well. I'm not gonna hold my breath on that, though.
You'd certainly turn quite purple.
I don't think he meant that is all it means to be British. He meant that all British citizens should share those fundamental core values. The core values shared by the majority is what defines any given culture, regardless of the many regional differences that make a country what it is.
Perhaps not, but his vagueness really pointed out how slipshod and superficial is his approach. He doesn't really know which aspects of the culture are intrinsic or acceptable or positive, so he speaks in such vague platitudes.
 
Most of Europe is done for, except maybe Germany. They happily bent over and took it up the poop chute from "displaced ethnics yearning for a better life".

The guilt of centuries of imperialism has left England, France and Spain without any degree of national pride. Except now the purists are coming in their Doc Martens and suspenders to take back what their pathetic governments have tossed away in the name of "tolerance".

pathetic.
 
As regards the first point, often this is not a case of changing the subject. Given that the disscussion normally focuses around whether these actions are an inherent part of Islam it is neccesary to look at other examples. Thus violence and authoritarianism are no more an inherent part of Islam then they are of Christiality,...

Ultimatly I dont except that these traits are inherent to Islam as I dont see the evidence. The lack of support for Islam electorally and the comparatively benine history that Islam has in tolerating other religeons (again it is necessary to make the comparison to Christiality here) convince me other wise, but im open to changing my mind on this. Thats why im here, however what normally happens is that you debate me rather then the topic.
Is the Illiberal Practice of Sharia "inherent to Islam"?
I could swear it is.

(assist to Sgt Rock for the graphic)
2010-muslim-01-13.png


Let me also include StillBallin to RedDave as having Missed and Deflected the point:
StillBallinn said:
I'm more interested to find out why exactly so many people are attracted to such a twisted ideology in the first place. Crazy ideas and ideologies abound everywhere in the world, but extremist/fundamentalist/radical Islam derives its power from a certain degree of popular support. Nobody seems to know why people are attracted to it in the first place.

This discussion is not just, or even mainly about terrorism. It's about illiberal attitudes that Mr Cameron says we don't tolerate from anyone Else and shouldn't from Muslims either.
Let's be clear what's being attempted once again.
Excuses for attitudes held by At Least significant minorities (oft 20-50%) of Muslims in the UK (9/11 conspiracy/Sharia, etc) and perhaps majority in some cases. (ie my 100% poll on Homosexuality)

You want to call/dismiss these Large numbers as "extremist/Twisted ideology"?
Is wanting Sharia Law or punishment for those who insult Islam, "twisted"?
We are talking about Mainstream/Significant ISLAMIC/Muslim Beliefs, Not just Islamism, and not just a few radicals.


We have a differing interpretation of why these actions occur, so the rational responce to this would be to actually come to the truth about which is correct via a rational and honest discussion....
'Wouldn't that be nice' as my friend Pat Condell says.
But it always degrades to rank tu-quoque-quoque-quoque and disingenuous/inaccurate dismissal as "radicals".
These 'illiberals' are NOT Radicals, at least not in Islam; they are everyday 'normal' Muslims.
 
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This discussion is not just, or even mainly about terrorism. It's about illiberal attitudes that Mr Cameron says we don't tolerate from anyone Else and shouldn't from Muslims either.
That's not what he was saying. He said:
We need to be absolutely clear on where the origins of these terrorist attacks lie - and that is the existence of an ideology, 'Islamist extremism'.

And we should be equally clear what we mean by this term, distinguishing it from Islam.

Islam is a religion, observed peacefully and devoutly by over a billion people. Islamist extremism is a political ideology, supported by a minority.
Let's be clear, his speech was entirely about defeating terrorism, and what has to be done to undermine the basis for it amongst British Muslim communities. Anyone is permitted to hold the most extreme and illiberal beliefs they wish, and express them (check out Southern Baptists, Opus Dei or the English Defence League). What cannot be tolerated is the attempt to impose those ideas through non-democratic means and using violence. You may wish that Cameron had been saying, "Judaeo-Christian values, good; Muslim values, bad." But Cameron was speaking about defeating extremist terrorism.
 
The irony of Cameron's speech being followed within hours by a march of 3,000 EDL fascist hatemongers, and a warm seal of approval by the BNP is all too evident.
 
The irony of Cameron's speech being followed within hours by a march of 3,000 EDL fascist hatemongers, and a warm seal of approval by the BNP is all too evident.

Why do you call the English Defense League fascist? Do you consider the American Tea Party fascist as well?
 
Why do you call the English Defense League fascist? Do you consider the American Tea Party fascist as well?

The memo is out, Al, it's all in the handbook for useful idiots, Alinksy For Dummies.
 
American conservatives reject the notion that the English Defense League is fascist. That idea is complete rubbish. We will have none of it.
 
and
andand

Yes Bravo!
But rather odd the above two posters are [now] cheering it unless they they think he only means "terrorism".

It's other posters in the Europe section, such as Myself, Gardener, Djoop, etc who've been the Bringing up much Wider "values" issue and being called "islamophobes" for it.

ie,
Poll: UK Muslims have ZERO tolerance of Homosexuality. 0-fer-500.
ihttp://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...zero-tolerance-homosexuality-0-fer-500-a.html
Read a few pages of the above if you want to see 'whos who' in this debate. Note the immediate attack/s.

So he's talking a Large Minority-to-maybe-Majority of Muslims who hold many of these Illiberal views and Koranic literalism. Such as wanting Sharia, penalty for anti-islamic speech, etc.
And of course talking about/objecting to multiculturalism and duplicity/hypocrisy by ostensible liberals.
"NOT just Terrorism." MY Mantra.

I have a hundred+ posts in the Europe section saying just that. Most heavily objected by many, including the two above.

Perhaps it's OK when Lalia posts it/quotes it.
But someone should now alert alexa, Red Dave, PeteEU, etc, etc, that two more have changed sides in the blink of an eyelash.

Once more you blow things out of proportion. I read a few pages and there are two major problems:

1. That article was about the personal moral beliefs of Muslims in Britain, not political beliefs like in this article.
2. None of the people you mention defended these beliefs. They simply countered yours and Gardener's generalization of all Muslims.
 
The irony of Cameron's speech being followed within hours by a march of 3,000 EDL fascist hatemongers, and a warm seal of approval by the BNP is all too evident.
So because the EDL doesnt find Sharia Law or Liberal Britains tolerance for it fashionable they are hatemongers? I would say its the other way around. Anyone who would label people that disagree with them or would put up with an idealogy that discriminates against Women, gays & people of other religions are the hate mongers here.
 
American conservatives reject the notion that the English Defense League is fascist. That idea is complete rubbish. We will have none of it.

EDL is not fascist. Oh no no no.

I prefer to think of them as in denial chav-scum racists under the mask.

Those of us in UK know they are no better than NF/BNP
 
Why do you call the English Defense League fascist? Do you consider the American Tea Party fascist as well?

I don't know enough about the Tea Party to call it fascist. It might be, but I don't have a view on it. The EDL IS definitely a neo-fascist organisation set up by English supremacists and specifically with a remit to attack Muslims. You don't need to spend very long on their website to see what they are about...
English Defence League News - EDL Latest News

I can't work out why you would draw a parallel between the EDL and the Tea Party though.
 
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