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Thread: Cameron tells Muslim Britain: stop tolerating extremists

  1. #41
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    Re: Cameron tells Muslim Britain: stop tolerating extremists

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    As regards the first point, often this is not a case of changing the subject. Given that the disscussion normally focuses around whether these actions are an inherent part of Islam it is neccesary to look at other examples. Thus violence and authoritarianism are no more an inherent part of Islam then they are of Christiality,...

    Ultimatly I dont except that these traits are inherent to Islam as I dont see the evidence. The lack of support for Islam electorally and the comparatively benine history that Islam has in tolerating other religeons (again it is necessary to make the comparison to Christiality here) convince me other wise, but im open to changing my mind on this. Thats why im here, however what normally happens is that you debate me rather then the topic.
    Is the Illiberal Practice of Sharia "inherent to Islam"?
    I could swear it is.

    (assist to Sgt Rock for the graphic)


    Let me also include StillBallin to RedDave as having Missed and Deflected the point:
    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallinn
    I'm more interested to find out why exactly so many people are attracted to such a twisted ideology in the first place. Crazy ideas and ideologies abound everywhere in the world, but extremist/fundamentalist/radical Islam derives its power from a certain degree of popular support. Nobody seems to know why people are attracted to it in the first place.
    This discussion is not just, or even mainly about terrorism. It's about illiberal attitudes that Mr Cameron says we don't tolerate from anyone Else and shouldn't from Muslims either.
    Let's be clear what's being attempted once again.
    Excuses for attitudes held by At Least significant minorities (oft 20-50%) of Muslims in the UK (9/11 conspiracy/Sharia, etc) and perhaps majority in some cases. (ie my 100% poll on Homosexuality)

    You want to call/dismiss these Large numbers as "extremist/Twisted ideology"?
    Is wanting Sharia Law or punishment for those who insult Islam, "twisted"?
    We are talking about Mainstream/Significant ISLAMIC/Muslim Beliefs, Not just Islamism, and not just a few radicals.


    We have a differing interpretation of why these actions occur, so the rational responce to this would be to actually come to the truth about which is correct via a rational and honest discussion....
    'Wouldn't that be nice' as my friend Pat Condell says.
    But it always degrades to rank tu-quoque-quoque-quoque and disingenuous/inaccurate dismissal as "radicals".
    These 'illiberals' are NOT Radicals, at least not in Islam; they are everyday 'normal' Muslims.
    Last edited by mbig; 02-05-11 at 06:46 PM.
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  2. #42
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    Re: Cameron tells Muslim Britain: stop tolerating extremists

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    This discussion is not just, or even mainly about terrorism. It's about illiberal attitudes that Mr Cameron says we don't tolerate from anyone Else and shouldn't from Muslims either.
    That's not what he was saying. He said:
    We need to be absolutely clear on where the origins of these terrorist attacks lie - and that is the existence of an ideology, 'Islamist extremism'.

    And we should be equally clear what we mean by this term, distinguishing it from Islam.

    Islam is a religion, observed peacefully and devoutly by over a billion people. Islamist extremism is a political ideology, supported by a minority.
    Let's be clear, his speech was entirely about defeating terrorism, and what has to be done to undermine the basis for it amongst British Muslim communities. Anyone is permitted to hold the most extreme and illiberal beliefs they wish, and express them (check out Southern Baptists, Opus Dei or the English Defence League). What cannot be tolerated is the attempt to impose those ideas through non-democratic means and using violence. You may wish that Cameron had been saying, "Judaeo-Christian values, good; Muslim values, bad." But Cameron was speaking about defeating extremist terrorism.
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  3. #43
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    Re: Cameron tells Muslim Britain: stop tolerating extremists

    The irony of Cameron's speech being followed within hours by a march of 3,000 EDL fascist hatemongers, and a warm seal of approval by the BNP is all too evident.
    Don't work out, work in.

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    Re: Cameron tells Muslim Britain: stop tolerating extremists

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    The irony of Cameron's speech being followed within hours by a march of 3,000 EDL fascist hatemongers, and a warm seal of approval by the BNP is all too evident.
    Why do you call the English Defense League fascist? Do you consider the American Tea Party fascist as well?

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    Re: Cameron tells Muslim Britain: stop tolerating extremists

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    Why do you call the English Defense League fascist? Do you consider the American Tea Party fascist as well?
    The memo is out, Al, it's all in the handbook for useful idiots, Alinksy For Dummies.

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    Re: Cameron tells Muslim Britain: stop tolerating extremists

    American conservatives reject the notion that the English Defense League is fascist. That idea is complete rubbish. We will have none of it.

  7. #47
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    Re: Cameron tells Muslim Britain: stop tolerating extremists

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    and
    andand

    Yes Bravo!
    But rather odd the above two posters are [now] cheering it unless they they think he only means "terrorism".

    It's other posters in the Europe section, such as Myself, Gardener, Djoop, etc who've been the Bringing up much Wider "values" issue and being called "islamophobes" for it.

    ie,
    Poll: UK Muslims have ZERO tolerance of Homosexuality. 0-fer-500.
    ihttp://www.debatepolitics.com/europe...fer-500-a.html
    Read a few pages of the above if you want to see 'whos who' in this debate. Note the immediate attack/s.

    So he's talking a Large Minority-to-maybe-Majority of Muslims who hold many of these Illiberal views and Koranic literalism. Such as wanting Sharia, penalty for anti-islamic speech, etc.
    And of course talking about/objecting to multiculturalism and duplicity/hypocrisy by ostensible liberals.
    "NOT just Terrorism." MY Mantra.

    I have a hundred+ posts in the Europe section saying just that. Most heavily objected by many, including the two above.

    Perhaps it's OK when Lalia posts it/quotes it.
    But someone should now alert alexa, Red Dave, PeteEU, etc, etc, that two more have changed sides in the blink of an eyelash.
    Once more you blow things out of proportion. I read a few pages and there are two major problems:

    1. That article was about the personal moral beliefs of Muslims in Britain, not political beliefs like in this article.
    2. None of the people you mention defended these beliefs. They simply countered yours and Gardener's generalization of all Muslims.
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    Re: Cameron tells Muslim Britain: stop tolerating extremists

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    The irony of Cameron's speech being followed within hours by a march of 3,000 EDL fascist hatemongers, and a warm seal of approval by the BNP is all too evident.
    So because the EDL doesnt find Sharia Law or Liberal Britains tolerance for it fashionable they are hatemongers? I would say its the other way around. Anyone who would label people that disagree with them or would put up with an idealogy that discriminates against Women, gays & people of other religions are the hate mongers here.

  9. #49
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    Re: Cameron tells Muslim Britain: stop tolerating extremists

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    American conservatives reject the notion that the English Defense League is fascist. That idea is complete rubbish. We will have none of it.
    EDL is not fascist. Oh no no no.

    I prefer to think of them as in denial chav-scum racists under the mask.

    Those of us in UK know they are no better than NF/BNP


  10. #50
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    Re: Cameron tells Muslim Britain: stop tolerating extremists

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    Why do you call the English Defense League fascist? Do you consider the American Tea Party fascist as well?
    I don't know enough about the Tea Party to call it fascist. It might be, but I don't have a view on it. The EDL IS definitely a neo-fascist organisation set up by English supremacists and specifically with a remit to attack Muslims. You don't need to spend very long on their website to see what they are about...
    English Defence League News - EDL Latest News

    I can't work out why you would draw a parallel between the EDL and the Tea Party though.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

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