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Thread: Cameron tells Muslim Britain: stop tolerating extremists

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    Re: Cameron tells Muslim Britain: stop tolerating extremists

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    Which would be pretty pointless, this is "Debate Politics" not 'state the obvious and go away' what is up for disscussion is not whether these actions are moral but why they occur. To explain or understand these actions is not to excuse them.
    You could start with acknowledging the existence of the prob;em. Common ground...what a concept. The OP cited a POV that has been roundly criticized on this site byt people who's kneejerk reaction is to deny extremism is a problem and defend all muslims. Its when the denial goes out that the tendency is stronger to lump them together.

    So...for the record...we are all in Koombaya agreement that 1 extremism is a problem, 2-PC Multi-culturalism has failed, and 3- Muslims need to do a better job of taking an oppositional stand to extremism.

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    Re: Cameron tells Muslim Britain: stop tolerating extremists

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    *sigh*. Yes, I support terrorists deep down, I worship Osama Bin Laden and I'm planning a terrorist attack right now and I dance naked to the tune of Hitler
    -Grins while cupping my hand to my ear-.......... you know if you listen really close … I think I can hear that Hitler tune playing right now

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    Re: Cameron tells Muslim Britain: stop tolerating extremists

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Caught me out have you?

    No one ever says they are not scumbags.
    But there is always those few posters who post some of those gems I have highlighted or claim it is somehow something all Muslims support which starts the arguments in many of the Islam-related threads.
    Not whether Islamists are good or bad
    For me...and only for me...I know its not all Muslims. I probably have at least as much if not more experience in relationships with Muslims than anyone here except..well..Muslims. What gets me is the immediately kneejerk denial demonstarted by many that since it isnt ALL Muslims then it is isnt a concern. Frankly, I think what Mr Cmeron said is pretty much what I have said here consistently.

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    Re: Cameron tells Muslim Britain: stop tolerating extremists

    I've got no problem with a lot of what Cameron had to say. I'll go further, here's what he says needs to be done to challenge extremism:
    We must ban preachers of hate from coming to our countries.
    Of course we should, whether that person is a Moslem cleric, an extremist Christian preacher, or a Dutch neo-fascist. If you're coming to preach hatred, you're not welcome.
    We must also proscribe organisations that incite terrorism - against people at home and abroad.
    Who could object to this?
    Governments must also be shrewder in dealing with those that, while not violent, are certainly, in some cases, part of the problem. We need to think much harder about who it's in the public interest to work with.
    I do have a problem with this. What does it mean? Does it mean groups that simply do not share our views. Or ones whose activity, while in itself not violent, could lead to violence. Like the NRA perhaps? No, that's silly, but do YOU know what he means?
    Some organisations that seek to present themselves as a gateway to the Muslim community are showered with public money despite doing little to combat extremism. As others have observed, this is like turning to a right-wing fascist party to fight a violent white supremacist movement.
    I can't disagree with this. There's a lot of laziness taking place, and timidity. People self-censor to the point where they are unwilling to call someone out on some unacceptable positions for fear of being called a racist. If people are going to receive public funds then their organisation should be scrutinised properly. That goes for Christian, Muslim, Jewish groups - everyone.

    So let's properly judge these organisations: Do they believe in universal human rights - including for women and people of other faiths? Do they believe in equality of all before the law? Do they believe in democracy and the right of people to elect their own government? Do they encourage integration or separatism?

    These are the sorts of questions we need to ask. Fail these tests and the presumption should be not to engage with organisations. No public money. No sharing of platforms with Ministers at home.
    But does all this go far enough? And can we have confidence that this initiative is not going to be used solely to attack Moslem communities? I don't think for a second that Cameron would have said what he did had he believed this would happen, but this forum bears witness that not everyone who wants to uphold liberal behaviour in the face of Islamism can distinguish between extremism and difference.

    Cameron said:
    We need to be absolutely clear on where the origins of these terrorist attacks lie - and that is the existence of an ideology, 'Islamist extremism'. And we should be equally clear what we mean by this term, distinguishing it from Islam.

    Islam is a religion, observed peacefully and devoutly by over a billion people. Islamist extremism is a political ideology, supported by a minority.
    I've read posts just today that clearly define the enemy as being Islam. They're not the only ones.

    So, if we are to adopt an attitude of 'Muscular Liberalism' we need to demonstrate we know the difference between Islam and Islamism, and that we are prepared to apply the same standards to all religious and minority groups.

    Here's where Cameron really falls down however. He say that the way forward involves two key changes:
    1. Tackling extremism
    2. Promoting citizenship

    It's in the second of these that his strategy seems doomed to failure. He says:
    A genuinely liberal country does much more.

    It believes in certain values and actively promotes them.

    Freedom of speech. Freedom of worship. Democracy. The rule of law. Equal rights regardless of race, sex or sexuality.

    It says to its citizens: this is what defines us as a society.
    What happens when these facets of a liberal society conflict with one another? We have been told that in the future we need to be denying a platform to those who preach intolerance. We must be banning preachers and proscribing organisations. If we ban the Muslim Brotherhood for their intolerance towards homosexuals (good, btw) what about the Catholic Church. Were the MB to tone down the violent rhetoric, would we accept their dismissal of homosexuality in the way we give the Pope a free pass to dismiss it?

    If Cameron is arguing that those Moslem speakers and organisations that, while not advocating violence, promote an alien illiberal agenda, need to be addressed and challenged and have funding reviewed and removed, why not for other religious groups whose rhetoric, while not violent, is deeply illiberal?

    And finally (for now), he says:
    It says to its citizens: this is what defines us as a society.
    Is that it? Is that all we are meant to have in common? A shared, woolly commitment (not shared by the majority of his own party, I might add) to liberal values. That's all it means to be British? Bugger me! I could've sworn there was more to it than that!
    Last edited by Andalublue; 02-05-11 at 03:46 PM.
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    Re: Cameron tells Muslim Britain: stop tolerating extremists

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I'm more interested to find out why exactly so many people are attracted to such a twisted ideology in the first place. Crazy ideas and ideologies abound everywhere in the world, but extremist/fundamentalist/radical Islam derives its power from a certain degree of popular support. Nobody seems to know why people are attracted to it in the first place.
    Careful there, pal. Your need to understand what makes them tick will be misinterpreted as you trying to find excuses for their behavior. Just thought I'd warn you.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

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    Re: Cameron tells Muslim Britain: stop tolerating extremists

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    It's in the second of these that his strategy seems doomed to failure. He says:

    What happens when these facets of a liberal society conflict with one another? We have been told that in the future we need to be denying a platform to those who preach intolerance. We must be banning preachers and proscribing organisations. If we ban the Muslim Brotherhood for their intolerance towards homosexuals (good, btw) what about the Catholic Church. Were the MB to tone down the violent rhetoric, would we accept their dismissal of homosexuality in the way we give the Pope a free pass to dismiss it?
    Yes, actually, I think that's exactly what would happen. Were Islamic extremists to become as harmless and irrelevant as the Catholics in their dogma and rhetoric, we would absolutely dismiss them. But seeing as the feeling that Islamists pose a clear and present danger is no longer just the fodder of ultra-right wing fear-mongering, but seems to have spread across the political spectrum all over Europe, they won't get a pass, no matter how much of a minority they are. Like it or not, they're in the spotlight right now and it's becoming increasingly apparent that the West is no longer willing to compromise its values.

    If Cameron is arguing that those Moslem speakers and organisations that, while not advocating violence, promote an alien illiberal agenda, need to be addressed and challenged and have funding reviewed and removed, why not for other religious groups whose rhetoric, while not violent, is deeply illiberal?
    For consistency's sake, other religious groups that routinely promote an illiberal agenda should be denied funding as well. I'm not gonna hold my breath on that, though.

    And finally (for now), he says:
    Is that it? Is that all we are meant to have in common? A shared, woolly commitment (not shared by the majority of his own party, I might add) to liberal values. That's all it means to be British? Bugger me! I could've sworn there was more to it than that!
    I don't think he meant that is all it means to be British. He meant that all British citizens should share those fundamental core values. The core values shared by the majority is what defines any given culture, regardless of the many regional differences that make a country what it is.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

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    Re: Cameron tells Muslim Britain: stop tolerating extremists

    Originally Posted by Laila

    "...I dance naked to the tune of Hitler"


    Would you be interested in working in Las Vegas?

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    Re: Cameron tells Muslim Britain: stop tolerating extremists

    One mistake Muslims seem to have made as a general matter is to associate themselves in a political alliance with leftists. That is a very grave error.

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    Re: Cameron tells Muslim Britain: stop tolerating extremists

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    it's becoming increasingly apparent that the West is no longer willing to compromise its values.
    Except when it comes to Saudi Arabia, the UAE and other 'good' dictatorships.
    For consistency's sake, other religious groups that routinely promote an illiberal agenda should be denied funding as well. I'm not gonna hold my breath on that, though.
    You'd certainly turn quite purple.
    I don't think he meant that is all it means to be British. He meant that all British citizens should share those fundamental core values. The core values shared by the majority is what defines any given culture, regardless of the many regional differences that make a country what it is.
    Perhaps not, but his vagueness really pointed out how slipshod and superficial is his approach. He doesn't really know which aspects of the culture are intrinsic or acceptable or positive, so he speaks in such vague platitudes.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

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    Re: Cameron tells Muslim Britain: stop tolerating extremists

    Most of Europe is done for, except maybe Germany. They happily bent over and took it up the poop chute from "displaced ethnics yearning for a better life".

    The guilt of centuries of imperialism has left England, France and Spain without any degree of national pride. Except now the purists are coming in their Doc Martens and suspenders to take back what their pathetic governments have tossed away in the name of "tolerance".

    pathetic.

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