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Obama Health-Care Reform Act Ruled Unconstitutional(edited)

Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

just saw this. can't find any details yet though. I think it's the mandate that eh ruled unconstitutional.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

just saw this. can't find any details yet though. I think it's the mandate that eh ruled unconstitutional.

Exactly but that will destroy the entire law. Without the individual mandate the bill dies under its own weight and cannot be funded.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Exactly but that will destroy the entire law. Without the individual mandate the bill dies under its own weight and cannot be funded.

I'm hoping that's exactly what happens, that it dies from it's own weight. That relieves the Congress from having to make any rash decisions.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

here ya go...

Obama Health-Care Reform Act Unconstitutional, Judge Says in 26-State Suit - Bloomberg

President Barack Obama’s health care reform legislation, assailed as an abuse of federal power in a 26-state lawsuit, was ruled unconstitutional by a U.S. judge.

U.S. District Judge Roger Vinson in Pensacola, Florida, declared the law unconstitutional in a ruling today. Then- Florida Attorney General Bill McCollum filed suit on behalf of 13 states on March 23, the same day Obama signed into law the legislation intended to provide the U.S. with almost universal health-care coverage. Seven states joined the litigation last year, and six signed on this year. Virginia Attorney General Kenneth Cuccinelli sued separately on March 23 and Oklahoma Attorney General Scott Pruitt filed his own suit on Jan. 21.

Vinson’s ruling may be appealed to the U.S. Court of Appeals in Atlanta. A federal appeals court in Richmond, Virginia, is already slated in May to hear challenges to two conflicting federal court rulings in that state, one of which upheld the legislation while the other invalidated part of it. The U.S. Supreme Court may ultimately be asked to consider the issue.

The 955-page law bars insurers from denying coverage to people who are sick and from imposing lifetime limits on costs. It also includes pilot projects to test ideas like incentives for better results and bundled payments to medical teams for patient care.

In an Oct. 14 decision letting the case to proceed, Vinson narrowed the issues to whether the act exceeded the constitutional powers of Congress by requiring all Americans over the age of 18 to obtain coverage and expanding eligibility for Medicaid, the federal-state program offering care for the indigent.

The case is State of Florida v. U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, 10-cv-00091, U.S. District Court, Northern District of Florida (Pensacola).
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

This is great news for the people on many levels and also for the economy.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

This is great news for the people on many levels and also for the economy.

Yes, those children with preexisting conditions and cancer patients who've been dropped from their health care will be thrilled.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

This was not a surprise. It'll be appealed.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Yes, those children with preexisting conditions and cancer patients who've been dropped from their health care will be thrilled.

You think it is the government's role to force people to purchase anything especially a personal responsibility product?
 
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Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Exactly but that will destroy the entire law.

Nope. It just means that people will be able to game the system by waiting until they get sick to sign up, and it will destroy the entire private insurance sector. That's A-OK with me. The individual mandate was a Republican idea that was included as an olive branch to the health insurance industry, in exchange for their support for ending preexisting conditions. If those same Republicans are now more interested in scoring political points then keeping the private health insurance sector alive, more power to them.

Conservative said:
Without the individual mandate the bill dies under its own weight and cannot be funded.

Huh? Funding? The individual mandate has nothing to do with how the bill is funded. I don't think you understand the arguments why it was included in the first place. Makes it rather difficult to rebut you...
 
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Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

This was not a surprise. It'll be appealed.

Yep, and that is where it belongs to reign in the Congress that overstretched its authority. There is nothing in the Constitution that requires Americans to purchase individual responsibility items.

How will the repeal of this bill hurt private insurance?
 
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Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Nope. It just means that people will be able to game the system and it will destroy the entire private insurance sector. That's A-OK with me.



Huh? Funding? The individual mandate has nothing to do with how the bill is funded. I don't think you understand the arguments why it was included in the first place. Makes it rather difficult to rebut you...

You are kidding, right? People forced to purchase insurance or pay a fine is all about funding. Without the massive increase in the pool this bill cannot be funded.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

You are kidding, right? People forced to purchase insurance or pay a fine is all about funding. Without the massive increase in the pool this bill cannot be funded.

Let's hope a REAL change to health care can begin - such as purchasing healthcare across state lines and tort reform. Both of which will do more for people than almost anything in the current abortion of a bill.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

You are kidding, right? People forced to purchase insurance or pay a fine is all about funding. Without the massive increase in the pool this bill cannot be funded.

Perhaps you should figure out the actual arguments in favor of the mandate before you hoot and holler in opposition. If you don't even understand the arguments in favor of the mandate, then you can't show us dummies where we're wrong.

I'll help you out: The individual mandate was included because preexisting conditions were being banned, in order to prevent people from waiting until they get sick to sign up for health insurance, thus driving health care costs out of control until no one signed up and the health insurance companies were bankrupted. It has absolutely nothing to do with government funding, and that was never even part of the discussion; the funding for the law is generated through tax increases and Medicare cuts. The amount of revenue that would be generated from these fines is a pittance. You could take those fines and set the money on fire, and it wouldn't make much difference. :roll:

We're just talking past each other though. You clearly don't understand the contents of the law.
 
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Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Let's hope a REAL change to health care can begin - such as purchasing healthcare across state lines and tort reform. Both of which will do more for people than almost anything in the current abortion of a bill.

Exactly and that has always been my problem with healthcare costs. No one has totally addressed what goes into those costs including legal expense, selling across state lines, govt. regulations, R&D requirements before implementing a bill that assures access but does nothing to lower costs, improve quality, and increases the number of hospitals and doctors.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Perhaps you should figure out the actual arguments in favor of the mandate before you hoot and holler in opposition. If you don't even understand the arguments in favor of the mandate, then you can't show us dummies where we're wrong.

I'll help you out: The individual mandate was included because preexisting conditions were being banned, in order to prevent people from waiting until they get sick to sign up for health insurance, thus driving health care costs out of control until no one signed up and the health insurance companies were bankrupted. It has absolutely nothing to do with government funding; the funding is generated through tax increases and Medicare cuts. The amount of revenue that would be generated from these fines is a pittance. You could take those fines and set the money on fire, and it wouldn't make much difference. :roll:

We're just talking past each other though. You clearly don't understand the contents of the law.

Don't bother helping me out as you need to help yourself out first. The individual mandate violates the Constitution when it comes to forcing Americans to buy anything related to personal responsibility issues. Tax increases are part of the personal mandates in the form of penalities for not getting insurance and there will be no Medicare cuts. I doubt seriously that pre-existing conditions had anything to do with Obama proposing Obamacare. Makes for great publicity though. This is about power and Obama vision for this country. "change that we can believe in!" How is that hope and change working out?
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Perhaps you should figure out the actual arguments in favor of the mandate before you hoot and holler in opposition. If you don't even understand the arguments in favor of the mandate, then you can't show us dummies where we're wrong.

I'll help you out: The individual mandate was included because preexisting conditions were being banned, in order to prevent people from waiting until they get sick to sign up for health insurance, thus driving health care costs out of control until no one signed up and the health insurance companies were bankrupted. It has absolutely nothing to do with government funding, and that was never even part of the discussion; the funding for the law is generated through tax increases and Medicare cuts. The amount of revenue that would be generated from these fines is a pittance. You could take those fines and set the money on fire, and it wouldn't make much difference. :roll:

We're just talking past each other though. You clearly don't understand the contents of the law.

The judge doesn't seem to agree. He voided the entire act:
"because the individual mandate is unconstitutional and not severable, the entire Act must be declared void."
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Tax increases are part of the personal mandates in the form of penalities for not getting insurance

Glad you agree. Congratulations, you just undermined the entire conservative legal argument against the mandate. I'm sure that was a heartfelt matter of principle, and not because you don't even understand the issues being debated in the courts. You should be Obama's solicitor-general, since you're so adept at making his legal argument that the mandate is a tax by another name. :mrgreen:
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Yes, those children with preexisting conditions and cancer patients who've been dropped from their health care will be thrilled.

Yes, there is no denying that many NEED healthcare.

The government could have (and can still) provide adequate health care coverage expanding, altering or improving the existing programs to help the others who are in need.

But I should not have to purchase coverage for myself - or pay a fine if I choose not to - to cover this for someone else.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Glad you agree. Congratulations, you just undermined the entire conservative legal argument against the mandate. I'm sure that was a heartfelt matter of principle, and not because you don't even understand the issues being debated in the courts. You should be Obama's solicitor-general, since you're so adept at making his legal argument that the mandate is a tax by another name. :mrgreen:

Apparently you don't understand the issue as well as you claim. Although the authority to raise taxes in allowed under the 14th Amendment there is no such authority on personal responsibility issues and that is the point and why it will be judicated in the SC. You cannot force Americans to pay for a personal responsibility issue by taxing them.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Here's my favorite part thus far from the Florida Judge's ruling:

“If Congress can penalize a passive individual for failing to engage in commerce, the enumeration of powers in the Constitution would have been in vain for it would be difficult to perceive any limitation on federal power, and we would have a Constitution in name only,” Vinson, 70, wrote today.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Apparently you don't understand the issue as well as you claim. Although the authority to raise taxes in allowed under the 14th Amendment there is no such authority on personal responsibility issues and that is the point and why it will be judicated in the SC. You cannot force Americans to pay for a personal responsibility issue by taxing them.

Yes you can. The child tax credit and the home mortgage deduction are long-standing examples of the government using the tax code to intrude in people's personal lives. No one in this case is disputing the power of government to tax people based on their personal decisions; the conservative argument against the mandate hinges on the dubious assumption that the individual mandate is NOT a tax, but is something rather different.

Now that you understand the issue, it's time for you to switch sides and swear up and down that the individual mandate is not a tax. Because you obviously truly believe that, and aren't just regurgitating (what you incorrectly thought were) conservative talking points. :mrgreen:
 
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Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Kandahar;1059256111]Yes you can. The child tax credit and the home mortgage deduction are long-standing examples of the government using the tax code to intrude in people's personal lives. No one in this case is disputing the power of government to tax people based on their personal decisions; the conservative argument against the mandate hinges on the dubious assumption that the individual mandate is NOT a tax, but is something rather different.

Hardly, not everyone owns a home, not everyone has a child but everyone is involved in healthcare and the mandate is unconstitutional?

Now that you understand the issue, it's time for you to switch sides and swear up and down that the individual mandate is not a tax. Because you obviously truly believe that, and aren't just regurgitating (what you incorrectly thought were) conservative talking points. :mrgreen:

I suggest you read the ruling of the court, Post 21 is a good one.

In addition, I like this part as well

"It is difficult to imagine that a nation which began, at least in part, as the result of opposition to a British mandate giving the East India Company a monopoly and imposing a nominal tax on all tea sold in America would have set out to create a government with the power to force people to buy tea in the first place. If Congress can penalize a passive individual for failing to engage in commerce, the enumeration of powers in the Constitution would have been in vain for it would be “difficult to perceive any limitation on federal power” [Lopez, supra, 514 U.S. at 564], and we would have a Constitution in name only. Surely this is not what the Founding Fathers could have intended."
 
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Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

kandahar said:
Yes you can. The child tax credit and the home mortgage deduction are long-standing examples of the government using the tax code to intrude in people's personal lives. No one in this case is disputing the power of government to tax people based on their personal decisions; the conservative argument against the mandate hinges on the dubious assumption that the individual mandate is NOT a tax, but is something rather different.

wasn't it Obama himself who insisted on national television that it wasn't a tax? was he lying to the American people then, or now?

as another judge put it when striking down this provision, to attempt to sell something as 'not a tax' and then turning around and defending it as part of Congress' right to tax is 'alice in wonderland' logic.

and tax credits such as the child and mortgage examples you give are government responding to economic activity undertaken by people; not lack thereof.



here's a question: if (say) McDonalds were to entirely fund the Republican party in 2012, and with a result Republicans were to win an unstoppable majority in the senate and the white house, and Republicans were to pass a bill stating that - McDonalds being an iconic part of American culture - all American citizens who didn't purchase at least one meal a day there would be taxed at 1,000% of their income.... and oh, by the way, (completely unrelated, we just happen to throw it in the same bill) we're bringing back debtors prisons for those who can't pay their taxes to the government.... would that be a lawful exercise of their powers, according to the logic you have laid out above?

i mean, it's not like they're going to throw you in jail for not buying McDonalds.... it just happens that that will be the likely result if you don't....
 
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