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Obama Health-Care Reform Act Ruled Unconstitutional(edited)

Conservative said:
You seem to miss the point, there is a need for healthcare reform but not this kind of reform. Republicans made proposals on healthcare reform, i.e. tort reform, selling across state lines, identifying and reducing waste, fraud, and abuse not Federal Mandates and massive expansion of govt.

As for Romney, this healthcare legislation in MA is going to be an albatross but apparently you have paid zero attention to this model for Obamacare. I suggest educating yourself. Costs continue to rise as access does not assure cheaper healthcare as people cannot get into seeing a doctor thus ER usage is way up. Is that really what you want to see?
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And you seemed to miss the part of my post where I was debunking someone else's claim that the mandate wasn't originally a Republican idea. I cited two articles that prove my point. Do you disagree that the mandate was a Republican idea?

You also seem to think that your right-wing ideology is fact. It's not. You have an opinion. So do I. I suggest educating yourself on the difference between fact and opinion.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Sgt Meowenstein said:
So if I don't agree with your conservative take on the issue, then I just don't understand the argument? I understand your argument, I just don't agree (and it has nothing to do with my post). You can say that the mandate is unconstitutional all you like, but until the Supreme Court says so, it isn't.

Now that I've cleared that up for you, let's get to the real issue with your post. I was responding to a poster who claimed that pre-existing conditions and other issues would not be covered by the HC law. As I pointed out, the law does cover those people. It's common sense. Anybody paying even a little attention knows that. Now, do you care to dispute that fact, or did you just want to throw out right-wing talking points?
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I'm pointing at the real agurment at hand is not that the law covers those people but does congress have the power to do so. So far the court rulings that the Federal Government is appealing to the Supreme Court says "No you don't have the power".
 
Sgt Meowenstein said:
No matter how circumspect you think she is, it doesn't change the fact that the mandate was originally a Republican idea.
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and my point is that bringing up whose idea it was, is a rather dumb argument. Do you really expect someone that just discovered that it was a republican idea will all of a sudden change their opinion and say "oh, it's ok now. Do you think that is what the SC will base their decision on? It's an unconstituional power grab. Whether it originated with repulibcans or not, doesn't matter at all.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Sgt Meowenstein said:
I don't agree that the public option is dead.
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it's a simple matter of counting

the budget chair (conrad) declared repeated thru 2009 the po dead

lieberman, ben nelson, dorgan, bayh, lincoln, pryor, warner and webb and others were on record opposed

even the gatekeeper himself (baucus, senate finance) was never on board

and since then, of course, there are eight net fewer dems

the po is pleistocene, ie, a dinosaur

party on
 
Sgt Meowenstein said:
And you seemed to miss the part of my post where I was debunking someone else's claim that the mandate wasn't originally a Republican idea. I cited two articles that prove my point. Do you disagree that the mandate was a Republican idea?

You also seem to think that your right-wing ideology is fact. It's not. You have an opinion. So do I. I suggest educating yourself on the difference between fact and opinion.
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Interesting how you cherrypicked the articles as mandates have never been a Republican Idea unless the quotes represent ALL Republicans. We know that Romney supported the mandate and that is going to be an albatross as the results matter a lot more than the rhetoric.

I asked you a question, why the passion for a public option? Where are there examples of the public option lowering costs, improving quality, and increasing the number of doctors? Is that what you really want in this country?
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

cpgrad08 said:
I'm pointing at the real agurment at hand is not that the law covers those people but does congress have the power to do so. So far the court rulings that the Federal Government is appealing to the Supreme Court says "No you don't have the power".
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The suit is not about who will be covered; it's about whether or not the mandate is constitutional. So far, two court rulings have sided with Democrats; two with Republicans. It will be up to the SCOTUS to decide.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Sgt Meowenstein said:
The suit is not about who will be covered; it's about whether or not the mandate is constitutional. So far, two court rulings have sided with Democrats; two with Republicans. It will be up to the SCOTUS to decide.
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Didn't read the ruling, I see. Be careful what you wish for, if the govt. can mandate insurance what else can they mandate?
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Kandahar said:
No it's not. Those numbers included ALL health care spending in all countries...public AND private. In the US, it's mostly private with a little bit of public. In many European countries, it's mostly public with a little bit of private. The TOTAL expenditures on health care are far higher here than in any other OECD country.

If we had a public option and it increased the average tax bill by, say, $1,000 while reducing the average premium by $1,500, I'd call that a reduction in costs.



Most other OECD countries have shown that you can give everyone access, reduce total costs, and have no worse health outcomes than we do here. Sounds like they have something we might learn from, but instead your idea of "real reform" is to move in the OPPOSITE direction of all these success stories.
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Cost is not the only important factor.
 
buck said:
and my point is that bringing up whose idea it was, is a rather dumb argument. Do you really expect someone that just discovered that it was a republican idea will all of a sudden change their opinion and say "oh, it's ok now. Do you think that is what the SC will base their decision on? It's an unconstituional power grab. Whether it originated with repulibcans or not, doesn't matter at all.
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I realize that the decision will not be based upon who's idea the mandate originally was. I never claimed otherwise. You, like many others, are putting words in my mouth. I was simply debunking someone's claim that the mandate was not originally a Republican idea. Are we clear now?
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Conservative said:
Didn't read the ruling, I see. Be careful what you wish for, if the govt. can mandate insurance what else can they mandate?
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Don't understand my post, I see. Again, the suit is not about who is covered, it's about whether or not mandating that people buy insurance is constitutional.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

therefore, expecting dem senators to put their careers on the line for the po is mere whistling

in contrast, raunchily realistic is the expectation that folks like mccaskill, webb, manchin, tester, both nelsons and a half dozen others are gonna be squeezed TODAY by their defense of the mandate

Dems up for reelection under pressure to nix healthcare mandate - TheHill.com

even a pal as progressive as howard dean says he expects the mandate to fall

and without the mandate...
 
Conservative said:
Interesting how you cherrypicked the articles as mandates have never been a Republican Idea unless the quotes represent ALL Republicans. We know that Romney supported the mandate and that is going to be an albatross as the results matter a lot more than the rhetoric.

I asked you a question, why the passion for a public option? Where are there examples of the public option lowering costs, improving quality, and increasing the number of doctors? Is that what you really want in this country?
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Interesting how you keep denying the FACT that the mandate was originally a Republican idea. Why are you arguing this point? It's common knowledge. You have been shown the proof over and over, yet you continue to deny it.

Why the passion for the public option? Because it will lower premiums by giving competition to insurers. I don't agree with you that it will have a negative impact on peoples' lives. Yes, it's really what I want in this country.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Sgt Meowenstein said:
Don't understand my post, I see. Again, the suit is not about who is covered, it's about whether or not mandating that people buy insurance is constitutional.
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And that is the point, explain to me why it is Constitutional for the Federal Govt. to mandate that you or anyone else have health insurance? By the way I am still waiting for you to break down the "50 million" uninsured people that are uninsured and tell us what part of that cannot actually afford insurance?
 
Sgt Meowenstein said:
Why the passion for the public option? Because it will lower premiums by giving competition to insurers. Yes, it's really what I want in this country.
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good for you, i guess

but you're more than 20 senators short
 
Sgt Meowenstein said:
Interesting how you keep denying the FACT that the mandate was originally a Republican idea. Why are you arguing this point? It's common knowledge. You have been shown the proof over and over, yet you continue to deny it.

Why the passion for the public option? Because it will lower premiums by giving competition to insurers. I don't agree with you that it will have a negative impact on peoples' lives. Yes, it's really what I want in this country.
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I don't care whose idea it was, I am against a mandate and you don't seem to understand why? I don't buy your argument that it was a "Republican" idea as I know of no one that speaks for all Republicans.

I asked you where the public option has lowered premiums anywhere else in the world? because you believe it doesn't make it true. The Federal Govt. by its nature is bloated and filled with waste, fraud, and abuse. What you really want apparently is someone to pay for your insurance, where do you want me to send the check?

Still waiting for the breakdown of your 50 million unemployed number? How many truly cannot afford healthcare insurance?
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Conservative said:
And that is the point, explain to me why it is Constitutional for the Federal Govt. to mandate that you or anyone else have health insurance? By the way I am still waiting for you to break down the "50 million" uninsured people that are uninsured and tell us what part of that cannot actually afford insurance?
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I don't need to explain it to you. Constitutional scholars are betting that it's covered by the Commerce Clause of the Constitution. I'm no constitutional expert. BUt their argument makes sense to me. It will ultimately be decided by the SCOTUS.

You can wait all you like on that other point. According to recent surveys, 50 million are uninsured. Prove them wrong. Even if it's more like 35 million, that's still a huge number of uninsured; and in the US, that's unacceptable.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Sgt Meowenstein said:
I don't need to explain it to you. Constitutional scholars are betting that it's covered by the Commerce Clause of the Constitution. I'm no constitutional expert. BUt their argument makes sense to me. It will ultimately be decided by the SCOTUS.

You can wait all you like on that other point. According to recent surveys, 50 million are uninsured. Prove them wrong. Even if it's more like 35 million, that's still a huge number of uninsured; and in the US, that's unacceptable.
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There is a difference between 50 million uninsured and how many of those uninsured cannot afford healthcare or haven't been offered healthcare or even qualify for U.S. Healthcare. this is a country built on individual freedoms that you now want to take away and the question is why?
 
Conservative said:
I don't care whose idea it was, I am against a mandate and you don't seem to understand why? I don't buy your argument that it was a "Republican" idea as I know of no one that speaks for all Republicans.

I asked you where the public option has lowered premiums anywhere else in the world? because you believe it doesn't make it true. The Federal Govt. by its nature is bloated and filled with waste, fraud, and abuse. What you really want apparently is someone to pay for your insurance, where do you want me to send the check?

Still waiting for the breakdown of your 50 million unemployed number? How many truly cannot afford healthcare insurance?
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If you don't care whose idea the mandate was, then stop arguing against the fact that it was a Republican idea. And stop playing your little games with me. It was a Republican idea. Just because every single Republican in existence isn't claiming the mandate as their idea, doesn't change the fact that the mandate was originally introduced by Republicans in the 1990s as an alternative to Hillary Clinton's HC plan.

Typical con. Just because I disagree, I'm a freeloading, good-for-nothing, welfare-receiving, no-job-having mooch. No, I don't want people paying for my insurance. And yes, I have a job. A public option would lower costs by giving insurers some competition. That's how I feel. You disagree? Fine. But don't act like you know a god damned thing about me.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Conservative said:
There is a difference between 50 million uninsured and how many of those uninsured cannot afford healthcare or haven't been offered healthcare or even qualify for U.S. Healthcare. this is a country built on individual freedoms that you now want to take away and the question is why?
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LOL. SO, because I have a different viewpoint, I'm a freedom-hating commie? Look, I can't argue with someone who continually resorts to partisan attacks. We don't agree. I'm okay with that. It doesn't mean that I hate freedom. Take a hike with that BS.
 
Sgt Meowenstein said:
If you don't care whose idea the mandate was, then stop arguing against the fact that it was a Republican idea. And stop playing your little games with me. It was a Republican idea. Just because every single Republican in existence isn't claiming the mandate as their idea, doesn't change the fact that the mandate was originally introduced by Republicans in the 1990s as an alternative to Hillary Clinton's HC plan.

Typical con. Just because I disagree, I'm a freeloading, good-for-nothing, welfare-receiving, no-job-having mooch. No, I don't want people paying for my insurance. And yes, I have a job. A public option would lower costs by giving insurers some competition. That's how I feel. You disagree? Fine. But don't act like you know a god damned thing about me.
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Apparently so because you cannot defend your position but buy the rhetoric from all those leftwing sites without every considering the consequences. Why do you believe in the absence of any evidence that the public option will lower healthcare costs to you?

You have some passion for this issue and the question is why? Why do you use the 50 million uninsured number without identifying who makes up those numbers? Ever think of why politicians really want national healthcare?
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Sgt Meowenstein said:
LOL. SO, because I have a different viewpoint, I'm a freedom-hating commie? Look, I can't argue with someone who continually resorts to partisan attacks. We don't agree. I'm okay with that. It doesn't mean that I hate freedom. Take a hike with that BS.
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You call that a partisan attack? You just cannot defend your position and that frustrates you. I couldn't defend it either.
 
Sgt Meowenstein said:
If you don't care whose idea the mandate was, then stop arguing against the fact that it was a Republican idea. And stop playing your little games with me. It was a Republican idea. Just because every single Republican in existence isn't claiming the mandate as their idea, doesn't change the fact that the mandate was originally introduced by Republicans in the 1990s as an alternative to Hillary Clinton's HC plan.
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Alright, I won't deny that.

Now, I ask you...to see if you'll show equal amount of honesty. Was the health care plan you're speaking about introduced by "republicans" in the 1990's widely regarded by most republicans as being ideal? Did it have extremely wide reaching support? Did it quickly lose the vast majority of its supports the moment actual definitive numbers came out about the cost of it? Was it the only plan introduced by Republicans or was it one of many aimed at providing a "compromised" alternative to Hillary's HC plan?

Your continual presentation acts and implies as if this was some gigantic, Republican loved, solidly backed and pushed, roundly supported idea. Is that what you're implying, or are you simply taking something a handful of Republicans supported for a short bit of time and quickly rejected and attempting to use it as some kind of measuring stick for what Republicans as a whole should always support as "their idea"?
 
Zyphlin said:
Alright, I won't deny that.

Now, I ask you...to see if you'll show equal amount of honesty. Was the health care plan you're speaking about introduced by "republicans" in the 1990's widely regarded by most republicans as being ideal? Did it have extremely wide reaching support? Did it quickly lose the vast majority of its supports the moment actual definitive numbers came out about the cost of it? Was it the only plan introduced by Republicans or was it one of many aimed at providing a "compromised" alternative to Hillary's HC plan?

Your continual presentation acts and implies as if this was some gigantic, Republican loved, solidly backed and pushed, roundly supported idea. Is that what you're implying, or are you simply taking something a handful of Republicans supported for a short bit of time and quickly rejected and attempting to use it as some kind of measuring stick for what Republicans as a whole should always support as "their idea"?
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pretty sure most of us thought the mandate sucked then... as it sucks now.
 
Sgt Meowenstein said:
Interesting how you keep denying the FACT that the mandate was originally a Republican idea.
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I've asked in other threads without any evidence presented. Perhaps you have this evidence and can post it please?
 
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