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Thread: Obama Health-Care Reform Act Ruled Unconstitutional(edited)

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    Re: Obama Health-Care Reform Act Ruled Unconstitutional(edited)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    I've asked in other threads without any evidence presented. Perhaps you have this evidence and can post it please?
    I challenge anyone to watch the attached and then come back here and defend Obamacare as something that will lower costs, lower the deficit, improve quality, and increase the quantity of doctors and hospitals. The story that some very good and decent people have ignored as they bought the liberal rhetoric because that is what they want to believe. Very frustrating the brainwashing that is going on and the total lack of understanding how the CBO works. Being non partisan means they take the information they get and don't change it.

    GOP Rep. Paul Ryan Tears Down the ObamaCare Fiscal House of Cards - Patriot Action Network

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    Re: Obama Health-Care Reform Act Ruled Unconstitutional(edited)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt Meowenstein View Post
    And that changes my viewpoint how?
    your view is relatively insignificant

    at least in comparison to senators conrad's, lieberman's, nelson's, webb's, baucus'...

    party on

    tell us more about your views, they're fascinating

    what's your favorite color?

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    Re: Obama Health-Care Reform Act Ruled Unconstitutional(edited)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    I've asked in other threads without any evidence presented. Perhaps you have this evidence and can post it please?
    I can post more evidence if you'd like; but since you keep ignoring the evidence that I've already provided, I think I'll pass on re-posting that evidence just to have you ignore it again. I'm not playing that game.


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    Re: Obama Health-Care Reform Act Ruled Unconstitutional(edited)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    your view is relatively insignificant

    at least in comparison to senators conrad's, lieberman's, nelson's, webb's, baucus'...

    party on

    tell us more about your views, they're fascinating

    what's your favorite color?
    So, you're viewpoint matters, but mine is insignificant? Another typical con...yaaaawwn...Judging by your childish post, I can safely assume that you're just a 12 yr old smart ass. Good to know. Then I won't bother talking to you.


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    Re: Obama Health-Care Reform Act Ruled Unconstitutional(edited)

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Apparently so because you cannot defend your position but buy the rhetoric from all those leftwing sites without every considering the consequences. Why do you believe in the absence of any evidence that the public option will lower healthcare costs to you?

    You have some passion for this issue and the question is why? Why do you use the 50 million uninsured number without identifying who makes up those numbers? Ever think of why politicians really want national healthcare?
    Absence of any evidence? According to whom? World Net Daily? Glenn Beck? The public option would lower costs by giving health insurers competition. You disagree? Great. I don't care. You have yet to prove that it won't bring down costs.

    Will you let the 50 million go already? I already addressed it. I even admitted that the number may be lower. But whether the number is 50, 35, or 20 million, it's still unacceptable to have that many people uninsured in the USA. I'm sorry you disagree, but that doesn't really matter to me.


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    Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    You call that a partisan attack? You just cannot defend your position and that frustrates you. I couldn't defend it either.
    I have defended my position. You're just upset that I won't tell you that you're right and I'm wrong. Sorry. Maybe somebody else will roll over for you, but not me.


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    Re: Obama Health-Care Reform Act Ruled Unconstitutional(edited)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt Meowenstein View Post
    Absence of any evidence? According to whom? World Net Daily? Glenn Beck? The public option would lower costs by giving health insurers competition. You disagree? Great. I don't care. You have yet to prove that it won't bring down costs.

    Will you let the 50 million go already? I already addressed it. I even admitted that the number may be lower. But whether the number is 50, 35, or 20 million, it's still unacceptable to have that many people uninsured in the USA. I'm sorry you disagree, but that doesn't really matter to me.
    HOW DARE YOU put that conspiracy-nut rag World Net Daily in the same category as Glenn Beck....World Net Daily deserves more respect than that

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    Re: Obama Health-Care Reform Act Ruled Unconstitutional(edited)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt Meowenstein View Post
    Absence of any evidence? According to whom? World Net Daily? Glenn Beck? The public option would lower costs by giving health insurers competition. You disagree? Great. I don't care. You have yet to prove that it won't bring down costs.

    Will you let the 50 million go already? I already addressed it. I even admitted that the number may be lower. But whether the number is 50, 35, or 20 million, it's still unacceptable to have that many people uninsured in the USA. I'm sorry you disagree, but that doesn't really matter to me.
    The facts, Sgt, the facts, those that have the public option and those that have a single payer system all have increasing healthcare costs. It doesn't take much research to find that what you want here is being dismantled in other countries and the question is why?

    I am still waiting for you to breakdown the 50 million number of uninsured. How many in that number can afford healthcare but CHOOSE not to purchase it? How many are illegal's, how many are eligible for healthcare but haven't signed up? How many then are left? Why do you think politicians want national healthcare?

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    Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt Meowenstein View Post
    I have defended my position. You're just upset that I won't tell you that you're right and I'm wrong. Sorry. Maybe somebody else will roll over for you, but not me.
    Here, educate yourself, do we need Obamacare to handle those who truly cannot afford healthcare?

    Page 34 I believe will give you the numbers of non U.S. citizens as well as income levels of the uninsured. What gives the govt. the right to demand that U.S. citizens buy healthcare?

    http://www.census.gov/prod/2010pubs/p60-238.pdf

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    Re: Obama Health-Care Reform Act Ruled Unconstitutional(edited)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Alright, I won't deny that.

    Now, I ask you...to see if you'll show equal amount of honesty. Was the health care plan you're speaking about introduced by "republicans" in the 1990's widely regarded by most republicans as being ideal? Did it have extremely wide reaching support? Did it quickly lose the vast majority of its supports the moment actual definitive numbers came out about the cost of it? Was it the only plan introduced by Republicans or was it one of many aimed at providing a "compromised" alternative to Hillary's HC plan?

    Your continual presentation acts and implies as if this was some gigantic, Republican loved, solidly backed and pushed, roundly supported idea. Is that what you're implying, or are you simply taking something a handful of Republicans supported for a short bit of time and quickly rejected and attempting to use it as some kind of measuring stick for what Republicans as a whole should always support as "their idea"?
    I don't know the whole history behind the individual mandate; but I do know that it was a Republican idea. Whether or not it was supported by a majority of Republicans is irrelevant. I realize that plenty of conservatives opposed it for whatever reason, but that doesn't change the fact that it was part of the official Republican alternative to "HillaryCare". Many Republicans played a role in the planning. Some, like one of the architects of the individual mandate, are scratching their heads at the GOP's new opposition to it.


    [T]he individual mandate was originally a Republican idea. "It was invented by Mark Pauly to give to George Bush Sr. back in the day, as a competition to the employer mandate focus of the Democrats at the time."

    Pauly, a conservative health economist at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School, says it wasn't just his idea. Back in the late 1980s — when Democrats were pushing not just a requirement for employers to provide insurance, but also the possibility of a government-sponsored single-payer system — "a group of economists and health policy people, market-oriented, sat down and said, 'Let's see if we can come up with a health reform proposal that would preserve a role for markets but would also achieve universal coverage.' "

    The idea of the individual mandate was about the only logical way to get there, Pauly says. That's because even with the most generous subsidies or enticements, "there would always be some Evel Knievels of health insurance, who would decline coverage even if the subsidies were very generous, and even if they could afford it, quote unquote, so if you really wanted to close the gap, that's the step you'd have to take."

    One reason the individual mandate appealed to conservatives is because it called for individual responsibility to address what economists call the "free-rider effect." That's the fact that if a person is in an accident or comes down with a dread disease, that person is going to get medical care, and someone is going to pay for it.

    "We called this responsible national health insurance," says Pauly. "There was a kind of an ethical and moral support for the notion that people shouldn't be allowed to free-ride on the charity of fellow citizens."

    And how does economist Pauly feel about the GOP's retreat from the individual mandate they used to promote? "That's not something that makes me particularly happy," he says.

    Republicans Spurn Once-Favored Health Mandate : NPR
    “The idea of an individual mandate as an alternative to single-payer was a Republican idea,’’ said health economist Mark Pauly of the University of Pennsylvania’s Wharton School. In 1991, he published a paper that explained how a mandate could be combined with tax credits — two ideas that are now part of Obama’s law. Pauly’s paper was well-received — by the George H.W. Bush administration.

    “It could have been the basis for a bipartisan compromise, but it wasn’t,’’ said Pauly. “Because the Democrats were in favor, the Republicans more or less had to be against it.’’

    Health insurance mandate began as a Republican idea - The Boston Globe
    And as recently as 2006, Mitt Romney was in love with the idea.

    Mitt Romney, weighing another run for the GOP presidential nomination, signed such a requirement into law at the state level as Massachusetts governor in 2006. At the time, Romney defended it as “a personal responsibility principle’’ and Massachusetts’ newest GOP senator, Scott Brown, backed it. Romney now says Obama’s plan is a federal takeover that bears little resemblance to what he did as governor and should be repealed.

    Romney’s success in Massachusetts with a bipartisan health plan that featured a mandate put the idea on the table for the 2008 presidential candidates.

    Brown, whose election to replace the late Democratic Edward M. Kennedy almost led to the collapse of Obama’s plan, said his opposition to the new law is over tax increases, Medicare cuts, and federal overreach on a matter that he says should be left up to states. Not so much the requirement, which he voted for as a state lawmaker. “In Massachusetts, it helped us deal with the very real problem of uncompensated care,’’ Brown said.

    Health insurance mandate began as a Republican idea - The Boston Globe


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