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Thread: Obama Health-Care Reform Act Ruled Unconstitutional(edited)

  1. #21
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    Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

    Here's my favorite part thus far from the Florida Judge's ruling:

    “If Congress can penalize a passive individual for failing to engage in commerce, the enumeration of powers in the Constitution would have been in vain for it would be difficult to perceive any limitation on federal power, and we would have a Constitution in name only,” Vinson, 70, wrote today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It would seem that the constitution is just a god damn piece of paper, to be trotted out when expedient.

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    Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Apparently you don't understand the issue as well as you claim. Although the authority to raise taxes in allowed under the 14th Amendment there is no such authority on personal responsibility issues and that is the point and why it will be judicated in the SC. You cannot force Americans to pay for a personal responsibility issue by taxing them.
    Yes you can. The child tax credit and the home mortgage deduction are long-standing examples of the government using the tax code to intrude in people's personal lives. No one in this case is disputing the power of government to tax people based on their personal decisions; the conservative argument against the mandate hinges on the dubious assumption that the individual mandate is NOT a tax, but is something rather different.

    Now that you understand the issue, it's time for you to switch sides and swear up and down that the individual mandate is not a tax. Because you obviously truly believe that, and aren't just regurgitating (what you incorrectly thought were) conservative talking points.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 01-31-11 at 05:02 PM.
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    Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

    Kandahar;1059256111]Yes you can. The child tax credit and the home mortgage deduction are long-standing examples of the government using the tax code to intrude in people's personal lives. No one in this case is disputing the power of government to tax people based on their personal decisions; the conservative argument against the mandate hinges on the dubious assumption that the individual mandate is NOT a tax, but is something rather different.
    Hardly, not everyone owns a home, not everyone has a child but everyone is involved in healthcare and the mandate is unconstitutional?

    Now that you understand the issue, it's time for you to switch sides and swear up and down that the individual mandate is not a tax. Because you obviously truly believe that, and aren't just regurgitating (what you incorrectly thought were) conservative talking points.
    I suggest you read the ruling of the court, Post 21 is a good one.

    In addition, I like this part as well

    "It is difficult to imagine that a nation which began, at least in part, as the result of opposition to a British mandate giving the East India Company a monopoly and imposing a nominal tax on all tea sold in America would have set out to create a government with the power to force people to buy tea in the first place. If Congress can penalize a passive individual for failing to engage in commerce, the enumeration of powers in the Constitution would have been in vain for it would be “difficult to perceive any limitation on federal power” [Lopez, supra, 514 U.S. at 564], and we would have a Constitution in name only. Surely this is not what the Founding Fathers could have intended."
    Last edited by Conservative; 01-31-11 at 05:15 PM. Reason: Added content

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    Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

    Here's a link to the entire ruling of Vinson's

    Vinson opinion
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    Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by kandahar
    Yes you can. The child tax credit and the home mortgage deduction are long-standing examples of the government using the tax code to intrude in people's personal lives. No one in this case is disputing the power of government to tax people based on their personal decisions; the conservative argument against the mandate hinges on the dubious assumption that the individual mandate is NOT a tax, but is something rather different.
    wasn't it Obama himself who insisted on national television that it wasn't a tax? was he lying to the American people then, or now?

    as another judge put it when striking down this provision, to attempt to sell something as 'not a tax' and then turning around and defending it as part of Congress' right to tax is 'alice in wonderland' logic.

    and tax credits such as the child and mortgage examples you give are government responding to economic activity undertaken by people; not lack thereof.



    here's a question: if (say) McDonalds were to entirely fund the Republican party in 2012, and with a result Republicans were to win an unstoppable majority in the senate and the white house, and Republicans were to pass a bill stating that - McDonalds being an iconic part of American culture - all American citizens who didn't purchase at least one meal a day there would be taxed at 1,000% of their income.... and oh, by the way, (completely unrelated, we just happen to throw it in the same bill) we're bringing back debtors prisons for those who can't pay their taxes to the government.... would that be a lawful exercise of their powers, according to the logic you have laid out above?

    i mean, it's not like they're going to throw you in jail for not buying McDonalds.... it just happens that that will be the likely result if you don't....
    Last edited by cpwill; 01-31-11 at 05:12 PM.

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    Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    wasn't it Obama himself who insisted on national television that it wasn't a tax? was he lying to the American people then, or now?

    as another judge put it when striking down this provision, to attempt to sell something as 'not a tax' and then turning around and defending it as part of Congress' right to tax is 'alice in wonderland' logic.

    and tax credits such as the child and mortgage examples you give are government responding to economic activity undertaken by people; not lack thereof.



    here's a question: if (say) McDonalds were to entirely fund the Republican party in 2012, and with a result Republicans were to win an unstoppable majority in the senate and the white house, and Republicans were to pass a bill stating that - McDonalds being an iconic part of American culture - all American citizens who didn't purchase at least one meal a day there would be taxed at 1,000% of their income.... and oh, by the way, (completely unrelated, we just happen to throw it in the same bill) we're bringing back debtors prisons for those who can't pay their taxes to the government.... would that be a lawful exercise of their powers, according to the logic you have laid out above?

    i mean, it's not like they're going to throw you in jail for not buying McDonalds.... it just happens that that will be the likely result if you don't....
    Although I agree the government can't force anyone to purchase health insurance, this is one of the worst analogies I've probably ever seen on DP, and that's coming from someone who has been accused several times of giving bad analogies.

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    Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

    I swear I remember reading that in the first version that obama released it said "the tax within this legislation is not to be treated as a tax"

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    Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Perhaps you should figure out the actual arguments in favor of the mandate before you hoot and holler in opposition. If you don't even understand the arguments in favor of the mandate, then you can't show us dummies where we're wrong.

    I'll help you out: The individual mandate was included because preexisting conditions were being banned, in order to prevent people from waiting until they get sick to sign up for health insurance, thus driving health care costs out of control until no one signed up and the health insurance companies were bankrupted. It has absolutely nothing to do with government funding, and that was never even part of the discussion; the funding for the law is generated through tax increases and Medicare cuts. The amount of revenue that would be generated from these fines is a pittance. You could take those fines and set the money on fire, and it wouldn't make much difference.

    We're just talking past each other though. You clearly don't understand the contents of the law.
    If that's the case why don't they just pass rule that says you can't deny children with pre-existing conditions insurance, rather than mandating them and other Americans?

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    Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    wasn't it Obama himself who insisted on national television that it wasn't a tax? was he lying to the American people then, or now?
    Huh? I never heard him say that on television. But yeah, if he did he was spinning. Such is the nature of politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill
    as another judge put it when striking down this provision, to attempt to sell something as 'not a tax' and then turning around and defending it as part of Congress' right to tax is 'alice in wonderland' logic.
    Seems like pretty standard political pandering to me. In any case, do you have a link to Obama's statement to that effect?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill
    and tax credits such as the child and mortgage examples you give are government responding to economic activity undertaken by people; not lack thereof.
    Well that has an easy fix, then. Raise taxes across the board, then offer a tax credit for anyone who gets health insurance. Problem solved.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill
    here's a question: if (say) McDonalds were to entirely fund the Republican party in 2012, and with a result Republicans were to win an unstoppable majority in the senate and the white house, and Republicans were to pass a bill stating that - McDonalds being an iconic part of American culture - all American citizens who didn't purchase at least one meal a day there would be taxed at 1,000% of their income.... and oh, by the way, (completely unrelated, we just happen to throw it in the same bill) we're bringing back debtors prisons for those who can't pay their taxes to the government.... would that be a lawful exercise of their powers, according to the logic you have laid out above?
    Yep, sounds legal to me. McDonald's is engaged in interstate commerce, and Congress has the power to tax incomes. So as far as I can tell that would be legal. Don't confuse "a lawful exercise of their powers" with "a good idea to implement this law." Although the debtor's prisons might violate the 8th amendment, I dunno.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill
    i mean, it's not like they're going to throw you in jail for not buying McDonalds.... it just happens that that will be the likely result if you don't...
    I don't see any legal reason Congress couldn't pass a law throwing you in jail for not buying McDonald's if they wanted to, aside from perhaps 8th amendment bans on disproportionate punishment relative to the crime.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 01-31-11 at 05:24 PM.
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    Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by DontDoIt View Post
    If that's the case why don't they just pass rule that says you can't deny children with pre-existing conditions insurance, rather than mandating them and other Americans?
    Because adults with preexisting conditions shouldn't be denied insurance either?
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