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Obama Health-Care Reform Act Ruled Unconstitutional(edited)

Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

cpwill said:
wasn't it Obama himself who insisted on national television that it wasn't a tax? was he lying to the American people then, or now?

as another judge put it when striking down this provision, to attempt to sell something as 'not a tax' and then turning around and defending it as part of Congress' right to tax is 'alice in wonderland' logic.

and tax credits such as the child and mortgage examples you give are government responding to economic activity undertaken by people; not lack thereof.



here's a question: if (say) McDonalds were to entirely fund the Republican party in 2012, and with a result Republicans were to win an unstoppable majority in the senate and the white house, and Republicans were to pass a bill stating that - McDonalds being an iconic part of American culture - all American citizens who didn't purchase at least one meal a day there would be taxed at 1,000% of their income.... and oh, by the way, (completely unrelated, we just happen to throw it in the same bill) we're bringing back debtors prisons for those who can't pay their taxes to the government.... would that be a lawful exercise of their powers, according to the logic you have laid out above?

i mean, it's not like they're going to throw you in jail for not buying McDonalds.... it just happens that that will be the likely result if you don't....
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Although I agree the government can't force anyone to purchase health insurance, this is one of the worst analogies I've probably ever seen on DP, and that's coming from someone who has been accused several times of giving bad analogies.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

I swear I remember reading that in the first version that obama released it said "the tax within this legislation is not to be treated as a tax"

:rofl
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Kandahar said:
Perhaps you should figure out the actual arguments in favor of the mandate before you hoot and holler in opposition. If you don't even understand the arguments in favor of the mandate, then you can't show us dummies where we're wrong.

I'll help you out: The individual mandate was included because preexisting conditions were being banned, in order to prevent people from waiting until they get sick to sign up for health insurance, thus driving health care costs out of control until no one signed up and the health insurance companies were bankrupted. It has absolutely nothing to do with government funding, and that was never even part of the discussion; the funding for the law is generated through tax increases and Medicare cuts. The amount of revenue that would be generated from these fines is a pittance. You could take those fines and set the money on fire, and it wouldn't make much difference. :roll:

We're just talking past each other though. You clearly don't understand the contents of the law.
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If that's the case why don't they just pass rule that says you can't deny children with pre-existing conditions insurance, rather than mandating them and other Americans?
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

cpwill said:
wasn't it Obama himself who insisted on national television that it wasn't a tax? was he lying to the American people then, or now?
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Huh? I never heard him say that on television. But yeah, if he did he was spinning. Such is the nature of politics.

cpwill said:
as another judge put it when striking down this provision, to attempt to sell something as 'not a tax' and then turning around and defending it as part of Congress' right to tax is 'alice in wonderland' logic.
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Seems like pretty standard political pandering to me. In any case, do you have a link to Obama's statement to that effect?

cpwill said:
and tax credits such as the child and mortgage examples you give are government responding to economic activity undertaken by people; not lack thereof.
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Well that has an easy fix, then. Raise taxes across the board, then offer a tax credit for anyone who gets health insurance. Problem solved.

cpwill said:
here's a question: if (say) McDonalds were to entirely fund the Republican party in 2012, and with a result Republicans were to win an unstoppable majority in the senate and the white house, and Republicans were to pass a bill stating that - McDonalds being an iconic part of American culture - all American citizens who didn't purchase at least one meal a day there would be taxed at 1,000% of their income.... and oh, by the way, (completely unrelated, we just happen to throw it in the same bill) we're bringing back debtors prisons for those who can't pay their taxes to the government.... would that be a lawful exercise of their powers, according to the logic you have laid out above?
Click to expand...

Yep, sounds legal to me. McDonald's is engaged in interstate commerce, and Congress has the power to tax incomes. So as far as I can tell that would be legal. Don't confuse "a lawful exercise of their powers" with "a good idea to implement this law." Although the debtor's prisons might violate the 8th amendment, I dunno.

cpwill said:
i mean, it's not like they're going to throw you in jail for not buying McDonalds.... it just happens that that will be the likely result if you don't...
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I don't see any legal reason Congress couldn't pass a law throwing you in jail for not buying McDonald's if they wanted to, aside from perhaps 8th amendment bans on disproportionate punishment relative to the crime.
 
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Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

DontDoIt said:
If that's the case why don't they just pass rule that says you can't deny children with pre-existing conditions insurance, rather than mandating them and other Americans?
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Because adults with preexisting conditions shouldn't be denied insurance either?
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Kandahar said:
I don't see any legal reason Congress couldn't pass a law throwing you in jail for not buying McDonald's if they wanted to, aside from perhaps 8th amendment bans on disproportionate punishment relative to the crime.
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They don't have the authority to pass such a law. They have no power to do so.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

cpwill said:
wasn't it Obama himself who insisted on national television that it wasn't a tax? was he lying to the American people then, or now?
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Mmm... I think... both.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

cpwill said:
wasn't it Obama himself who insisted on national television that it wasn't a tax?
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Yes, and vehemently so.

What else was he going to say after promising for months that families making under $250,000 would see "no tax increase in any form"?
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Kandahar said:
Huh? I never heard him say that on television. But yeah, if he did he was spinning. Such is the nature of politics.



Seems like pretty standard political pandering to me. In any case, do you have a link to Obama's statement to that effect?
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Here's a video of one instance:

 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Ockham said:
Let's hope a REAL change to health care can begin - such as purchasing healthcare across state lines and tort reform. Both of which will do more for people than almost anything in the current abortion of a bill.
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I see what you did there....
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Kandahar said:
Because adults with preexisting conditions shouldn't be denied insurance either?
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So how about a regulation that pre existing can not be used by insurance companies to raise premiums or deny coverage
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Kandahar said:
Because adults with preexisting conditions shouldn't be denied insurance either?
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Ok, you're beating around the bush here. You can argue that people with pre-existing conditions shouldn't be denied coverage, thats one topic. Mandating people who don't have pre-existing problems with them is another, and isn't needed, except it's an inadvertent way to help cover the cost of the pre-existing patients, plain and simple.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Johnny Centrist said:
Yes, those children with preexisting conditions and cancer patients who've been dropped from their health care will be thrilled.
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Emotions are no good in this debate.

We can't afford this bill anyways. It should have never been written on those grounds alone.

You can't spend your way our of debt, and by the looks of it, our currency is on the verge of collapse and your answer is to spend even more money we don't have and can't print enough of?

Seriously?
 
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Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

DontDoIt said:
Ok, you're beating around the bush here. You can argue that people with pre-existing conditions shouldn't be denied coverage, thats one topic. Mandating people who don't have pre-existing problems with them is another, and isn't needed, except it's an inadvertent way to help cover the cost of the pre-existing patients, plain and simple.
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If we get right down to it, what we call health insurance isn't really insurance at all.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

ptif219 said:
So how about a regulation that pre existing can not be used by insurance companies to raise premiums or deny coverage
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That won't work as a business model. Insurance companies would end up bankrupt in quick order. The way to do it would probably be something similar to HIPAA for individual coverage. This would result in higher premiums, but so would Obamacare, regardless of their claim.
 
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Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

2-2 Now.

I don't understand why this really matters though, it could be 100-0 in favor of the law but the SCOTUS can still knock it down. Same goes for the converse.

Eventually this law, or at least that one clause, will be decided by Kennedy.



I don't really care about the outcome. If my job didn't provide health insurance, I'd just buy it when I got sick and pay for it otherwise :3
 
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Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Does this mean that conservatives don't mind judicial activism now?
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

independent_thinker2002 said:
Does this mean that conservatives don't mind judicial activism now?
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Maybe we should have left it up to Schumer's three branches of the govt, the House, the Senate, and the President? LOL, brilliant.

Where is the Judicial activism here? Looks to me like they are interpreting the law. Did you read the decision? Well written and hardly judicial activism. Judicial activists ignore the Constitution.
 
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