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Thread: Obama Health-Care Reform Act Ruled Unconstitutional(edited)

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    Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Perhaps you should figure out the actual arguments in favor of the mandate before you hoot and holler in opposition. If you don't even understand the arguments in favor of the mandate, then you can't show us dummies where we're wrong.

    I'll help you out: The individual mandate was included because preexisting conditions were being banned, in order to prevent people from waiting until they get sick to sign up for health insurance, thus driving health care costs out of control until no one signed up and the health insurance companies were bankrupted. It has absolutely nothing to do with government funding, and that was never even part of the discussion; the funding for the law is generated through tax increases and Medicare cuts. The amount of revenue that would be generated from these fines is a pittance. You could take those fines and set the money on fire, and it wouldn't make much difference.

    We're just talking past each other though. You clearly don't understand the contents of the law.
    And THERE we have it!
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    Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Don't you get it? We don't want it implemented at all.
    Umm well the person to whom I was responding (i.e. not you) apparently wants a regulation about preexisting conditions. I'm merely pointing out why that doesn't work without an individual mandate unless you're willing to have public health insurance. If you're OK with sick people being bankrupted and left to die, you have the right to your opinion. But apparently there are some people on this board, including conservatives, who disagree with you.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 01-31-11 at 10:41 PM.
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    Re: Obama Health-Care Reform Act Ruled Unconstitutional(edited)

    Quote Originally Posted by Badmutha View Post
    5-4 decision against ObamaCare........

    ....scary to think the constitution is only one liberal justice away from the paper shredder......
    .
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    What defense does Obama have when a judge uses Obama's own words against him?

    Judge uses Obama's words against him - Washington Times

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    Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    And how do you propose to implement that without an individual mandate? If sick people and healthy people both have access to the same coverage at the same price, the healthy people are more likely to wait until they get sick before they sign up for health insurance. In effect, this means that the health insurance pools at any given point in time will be dominated by the oldest and sickest people, thus driving up the premiums for everyone and encouraging even more young/healthy people to free ride. The end result will be premiums so expensive that no one can afford them, and the collapse of private health insurance.

    The only way to prevent that from happening is to have some external force preventing healthy people from going without insurance...hence the individual mandate. I know of no way that makes economical sense to 1) end preexisting conditions, 2) have a private health insurance industry, and 3) not have an individual mandate. You can pick any two of the them, but you can't have all three.

    That's why I think the Republicans are swimming in dangerous waters with their court challenges if they favor a free-market approach to health care. If ultimately the Supreme Court strikes down the individual mandate but not the rest of the bill (in other words, if the Supreme Court picks options 1 and 3 above) then we will cease to have option 2. The result would be a government takeover of the entire health insurance industry.
    Why would we need the mandate?

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    Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Umm well the person to whom I was responding (i.e. not you) apparently wants a regulation about preexisting conditions. I'm merely pointing out why that doesn't work without an individual mandate unless you're willing to have public health insurance. If you're OK with sick people being bankrupted and left to die, you have the right to your opinion. But apparently there are some people on this board, including conservatives, who disagree with you.
    I have to laugh. CC didn't believe me when I said that lefties actually argued that there were people left dying in the streets under the current health care system. I'll have to show him this. Thanks.
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    Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by ptif219 View Post
    Why would we need the mandate?
    If you want A) an end to preexisting conditions, and B) the continued existence of a private insurance industry, then you'll need some mechanism to keep healthy people in the insurance pool. Otherwise, they'll be inclined to wait until they get sick to sign up, thus driving up the costs, thus encouraging more healthy people to drop coverage, thus driving up costs more, ad infinitum, until no one can afford insurance and no one is covered by insurance.
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    Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    I have to laugh. CC didn't believe me when I said that lefties actually argued that there were people left dying in the streets under the current health care system. I'll have to show him this. Thanks.
    Who said anything about the streets? They die in hospital beds mostly. Do you deny that people without health insurance often do not get the medical treatment they need? Really?
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    Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    If you want A) an end to preexisting conditions, and B) the continued existence of a private insurance industry, then you'll need some mechanism to keep healthy people in the insurance pool. Otherwise, they'll be inclined to wait until they get sick to sign up, thus driving up the costs, thus encouraging more healthy people to drop coverage, thus driving up costs more, ad infinitum, until no one can afford insurance and no one is covered by insurance.
    well since the mandate is gonna be toast that seems like a great reason why Obama care needs to be flushed down the toilet



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    Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    If you want A) an end to preexisting conditions, and B) the continued existence of a private insurance industry, then you'll need some mechanism to keep healthy people in the insurance pool. Otherwise, they'll be inclined to wait until they get sick to sign up, thus driving up the costs, thus encouraging more healthy people to drop coverage, thus driving up costs more, ad infinitum, until no one can afford insurance and no one is covered by insurance.
    Why do we need the Federal Govt to do that? What is wrong with the states implementing the program? Implement it in D.C. and let the citizens there fund your insurance.

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    Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Why do we need the Federal Govt to do that? What is wrong with the states implementing the program? Implement it in D.C. and let the citizens there fund your insurance.
    From an economic standpoint, you'd still have the free rider problem if you did it at the state level, just like you would if you didn't require healthy people to buy insurance. Suppose that one state decides to cover all its residents...so you wait until you get sick, then you move to that state to take advantage of the coverage. This drives up the cost of insurance, which discourages healthy people from moving to that state, which further drives up the cost of insurance, etc. It's just a slightly less exaggerated version of the same problem associated with trying to end preexisting conditions without an individual mandate.

    From a logistical standpoint, the biggest reason to do it at the federal level is simply because it's less of a pain in the ass to have one standard than to have 50 standards. You may discount this as unimportant, but a sizable fraction of all health care spending goes to pushing paper and bureaucratic compliance with various government agencies and insurance companies. Consolidating it all in one place can reduce these costs.
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