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White House to Push Gun Control

j-mac said:
Did you check the site Joe, it's in there...



So what's your point? 700 incidents of accidental shooting by gun owners, as compared to 500,000 successful thwarting of crimes. That's .0014% .....NEXT!


j-mac
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Answered it. A suvey. this means they asked people if they did. This is more than a little subjective. My brother in law would say he does it daily. He's lying of course, but he doesn't know it. ;)
 
Boo Radley said:
Now add sucicides;

•Although most gun owners reportedly keep a firearm in their home for "protection" or "self defense," 83 percent of gun-related deaths in these homes are the result of a suicide, often by someone other than the gun owner.

AFSP: Facts and Figures: National Statistics
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because a suicidal person is always thwarted by lack of access to a gun. :roll:



Should we ban bridges and sleeping pills to because some waste wants to take his own life?
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
because a suicidal person is always thwarted by lack of access to a gun. :roll:



Should we ban bridges and sleeping pills to because some waste wants to take his own life?
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Well, they are more effective with guns. But as it is part of my claim, that more are hurt than protected, if has to be part of the numbers.
 
Boo Radley said:
Well, they are more effective with guns. But as it is part of my claim, that more are hurt than protected, if has to be part of the numbers.
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How do you figure? Even using your own numbers it's still less than 1%


j-mac
 
Boo Radley said:
Well, they are more effective with guns. But as it is part of my claim, that more are hurt than protected, if has to be part of the numbers.
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no it doesn't. You are attributing actions of individuals to the chosen tool, you would have to show that without guns, these folks would not jump off a bridge. It's a non starter. The gun is not to blame for some suicidal idiot offing himself.
 
j-mac said:
How do you figure? Even using your own numbers it's still less than 1%


j-mac
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less than 1% orf what? Compared to what? All it has to be is more than those documented killed in self protection. Accidents (including shooting the wrong person) and sucides are more.
 
Boo Radley said:
less than 1% orf what? Compared to what? All it has to be is more than those documented killed in self protection. Accidents (including shooting the wrong person) and sucides are more.
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You just made an argument to ban cars and buckets of water. Kudos to you. :roll:
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
no it doesn't. You are attributing actions of individuals to the chosen tool, you would have to show that without guns, these folks would not jump off a bridge. It's a non starter. The gun is not to blame for some suicidal idiot offing himself.
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Good point Rev. Tylenol accounts for suicide as well, should we ban that? I have never seen a gun chase someone down and shoot them without a human at the operating end.


j-mac
 
Boo Radley said:
less than 1% orf what? Compared to what? All it has to be is more than those documented killed in self protection. Accidents (including shooting the wrong person) and sucides are more.
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Um no, they aren't and you haven't shown so.

j-mac
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
no it doesn't. You are attributing actions of individuals to the chosen tool, you would have to show that without guns, these folks would not jump off a bridge. It's a non starter. The gun is not to blame for some suicidal idiot offing himself.
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No, I don't. That's entirely a different arguement. You can defend yourself with another tool as well. All that is claim is that more people hurt themselves and others around them with guns than they hurt others in protection.
 
j-mac said:
Um no, they aren't and you haven't shown so.

j-mac
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•Although most gun owners reportedly keep a firearm in their home for "protection" or "self defense," 83 percent of gun-related deaths in these homes are the result of a suicide, often by someone other than the gun owner.

And the accident deaths and protectin deaths are above as well.
 
Boo Radley said:
You can defend yourself with another tool as well.
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Ok, let's say that guns were never invented. Let's say that swords were still the personal weapon of choice. Would you then be arguing that they should be kept from legal ownership because the mentally ill, or criminals, or accidents cause death at a swords use?

All that is claim is that more people hurt themselves and others around them with guns than they hurt others in protection.
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So what? You can't protect people from themselves. It is not your call.

j-mac
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
So you are just whining for whining sake? Whats your point then. people die? So what do you want to do about it?
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What it has always been. Too many see guns not as a tool, but as a mythical icon capable of saving the world and giving everyone warm fuzzies. A gun to protect yourself can also be used to bring misery into your life. At a minimum, when you choose to have a weapon in the house, you should understand risks and responibsility come with it. It isn't magic or supernatural. It's just like a hammer, . . atool and nothing more or less.

You guys simply ingore the argument and jump all over the place, j going toe to toe with the mythical liberla.
 
Boo Radley said:
What it has always been. Too many see guns not as a tool, but as a mythical icon capable of saving the world and giving everyone warm fuzzies.
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I actually agree with that. Even for cops. Did you know they took a survey and found out the safest place in NYC to stand if a cop was shooting at you, was right in front of him? 11% hit rate, criminals, 21% hit rate...


I think training is as important as placing a cc down on the counter, I've said this countless times.



A gun to protect yourself can also be used to bring misery into your life. At a minimum, when you choose to have a weapon in the house, you should understand risks and responibsility come with it. It isn't magic or supernatural. It's just like a hammer, . . atool and nothing more or less.
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I do, always have, and for example, I had the correct tool, and equipment for a patrol job in NM. You thought it was overkill, the previous employees who quit would disagree, as would I.

What this has to do with "misery" though is baffling.



You guys simply ingore the argument and jump all over the place, j going toe to toe with the mythical liberla.
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What argument, that guns are dangerous? So are cars and buckets of water, both caused more deaths than guns..... your point is moot if not hysterics.
 
j-mac said:
Ok, let's say that guns were never invented. Let's say that swords were still the personal weapon of choice. Would you then be arguing that they should be kept from legal ownership because the mentally ill, or criminals, or accidents cause death at a swords use?



So what? You can't protect people from themselves. It is not your call.

j-mac
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You're still not addressing me. Nothing in my claim disputes this.
 
Boo Radley said:
•Although most gun owners reportedly keep a firearm in their home for "protection" or "self defense," 83 percent of gun-related deaths in these homes are the result of a suicide, often by someone other than the gun owner.

And the accident deaths and protectin deaths are above as well.
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Big deal! Your own article from a source clearly against gun ownership in the home, is that there are some 34,000 deaths from suicide. You are saying that 83% of these is from self inflicted gunshot. that would be approximately 28,000 of them. Now lets put away the fact that this sources own numbers are questionable because they also say that Alcoholism is responsible in 30% of suicides, 83, and 30 equals 113%, you can't achieve more than 100%, but anyway, I showed that there are some 3 million guns owned legally in the US, of that approximately 500,000 were used to thwart a crime of some sort, and the accidental rates were around 16,000 of that.

Now, take your 28,000, and add it to 16,000 and you get 44,000 out of 500,000 that equals about 8.8%, so how do you arrive at your absurd statement that "All it has to be is more than those documented killed in self protection. Accidents (including shooting the wrong person) and sucides are more." This is simply wrong.


j-mac
 
j-mac said:
Big deal! Your own article from a source clearly against gun ownership in the home, is that there are some 34,000 deaths from suicide. You are saying that 83% of these is from self inflicted gunshot. that would be approximately 28,000 of them. Now lets put away the fact that this sources own numbers are questionable because they also say that Alcoholism is responsible in 30% of suicides, 83, and 30 equals 113%, you can't achieve more than 100%, but anyway, I showed that there are some 3 million guns owned legally in the US, of that approximately 500,000 were used to thwart a crime of some sort, and the accidental rates were around 16,000 of that.

Now, take your 28,000, and add it to 16,000 and you get 44,000 out of 500,000 that equals about 8.8%, so how do you arrive at your absurd statement that "All it has to be is more than those documented killed in self protection. Accidents (including shooting the wrong person) and sucides are more." This is simply wrong.


j-mac
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\


actually, there are 250 million guns owned by private individuals.


NRA-ILA :: More Guns, Less Crime Again
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
I actually agree with that. Even for cops. Did you know they took a survey and found out the safest place in NYC to stand if a cop was shooting at you, was right in front of him? 11% hit rate, criminals, 21% hit rate...


I think training is as important as placing a cc down on the counter, I've said this countless times.






I do, always have, and for example, I had the correct tool, and equipment for a patrol job in NM. You thought it was overkill, the previous employees who quit would disagree, as would I.

What this has to do with "misery" though is baffling.







What argument, that guns are dangerous? So are cars and buckets of water, both caused more deaths than guns..... your point is moot if not hysterics.
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Misery. Son commits sucide with yoru gun. Misery.

Yes, guns are dangerous, and not a warm fuzzy. All the sentences work together to make the one point.
 
j-mac said:
Big deal! Your own article from a source clearly against gun ownership in the home, is that there are some 34,000 deaths from suicide. You are saying that 83% of these is from self inflicted gunshot. that would be approximately 28,000 of them. Now lets put away the fact that this sources own numbers are questionable because they also say that Alcoholism is responsible in 30% of suicides, 83, and 30 equals 113%, you can't achieve more than 100%, but anyway, I showed that there are some 3 million guns owned legally in the US, of that approximately 500,000 were used to thwart a crime of some sort, and the accidental rates were around 16,000 of that.

Now, take your 28,000, and add it to 16,000 and you get 44,000 out of 500,000 that equals about 8.8%, so how do you arrive at your absurd statement that "All it has to be is more than those documented killed in self protection. Accidents (including shooting the wrong person) and sucides are more." This is simply wrong.


j-mac
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:lamo

You have no documented objective evidence on the 500,000. Sorry, but people saying they did is not equal to objective proof they did. You're also reading the numbers wrong. Just saying. :coffeepap
 
Boo Radley said:
Misery. Son commits sucide with yoru gun. Misery.
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Your son? I'm sorry to hear that. But I must say, your sun committed suicide, the gun did not commit suicide upon him.



Yes, guns are dangerous, and not a warm fuzzy. All the sentences work together to make the one point.
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who ever claimed otherwise. You accuse us of jumping on things not said, and here you are....
 
j, these are the nunmbers we're working with:


its already established there are between 700-1300 accidental shootings a year.



"there are about 7700 to 18500 reported legal shootings of criminals a year"

Guns and Self-Defense by Gary Kleck, Ph.D.

Now 44,000 is more than 18500. And by a wide margin as well.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
Your son? I'm sorry to hear that. But I must say, your sun committed suicide, the gun did not commit suicide upon him.







who ever claimed otherwise. You accuse us of jumping on things not said, and here you are....
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I think you know my soin didn't. But moving on. He still used the gun. Just as the gun didn't shoot the criminal. The person did. If you can't use gun statisitics on suicide you can't use them for protection either.
 
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